Gays For Jesus
TV viewer Cheryl: I just wanted to show you some scriptures that I feel very clearly state that homosexual behavior is wrong. My reply: . . . to use the Word of God against gays is indeed gay bashing. You don't love the person period, because you have a for gone conclusion that they live in sin and you will treat them so.
Commentsin reply to Cheryl
^i^ Generally I did not go into as much detail here in Her e-mail to me. I have covered her issues fairly well and have added links to those details. The point of her e-mail is how she uses all the FEW verses as her base to condemn gays. She even so much as to say gays are so bad because of in her own words " Biblical references to homosexuality are relatively few. Genesis 19:1-11 tells the story of an attempted homosexual gang rape at the house of Lot by the wicked men of Sodom". Most of you have the answer to This text before your very eyes. Gang rape just is not acts done between two people that are in a loving, caring, long term monogamous relationship like supposedly a straight marriage represents. This is the typical way people condemn gays. They use behaviors that do not represent gays at all then say this proves gay is sin.
Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 10:29:44 -0800
I listened to your program this morning, and I wanted to send you some information that I have based my beliefs on. Would you please look at this and make corrections (with scripture as your basis) where you feel that God's Word is unclear about homosexuality? Sin is sin to me, and we are to be against the sin, but love the sinner. Please also understand that I do not promote gay-bashing, abortion bombing, or any other types of sin against other human beings. I just wanted to show you some scriptures that I feel very clearly state that homosexual behavior is wrong. It all boils down to a heart issue. I would very much appreciate your response to me. Thank you,
^i^ First of all to be very clear, but not condemning, to use the Word of God against gays is indeed gay bashing. You are wanting correction so this is saying you are not sure out of one side of your mouth and out of the other it's a for gone conclusion to you that gay is sin. I do hope you have internet connection as I will refer you to my home page concerning these issues. Here is an important fact for you. To say you love the sinner, but not the sin is the most stupid thing you can say to anybody whether real or imaged sin exists. You don't love the person period, because you have a for gone conclusion that they live in sin and you will treat them so. Behavior speak a way louder than words. If you are to be against sin then why are you against the army? I was in the USAF and saw straight Christians and other men shacking up downtown like fleas. Yet, in all my 24 years as a Christian I have not seen any Christian trying to get the military to stop promoting this atmosphere. Why don't you hate the sin of those in your Church. Some are divorced and married again. What does the Bible say about that? Most Christians never divorced because the other was unfaith. Long before it would ever get that far they long since were divorced in spirit. The Bible also say the reason to leave parent is to marry, however it's a rare Christian that left parents to marry. They always leave for many other reason and marriage is a way back on an rarely looked at shelf. Abortion is out of place in your thinking. I do not deal much with those issues, find someone else to discuss them. The Church is a far greater risk to it's children than any bomber. There are many things that you would care less about in the Church let alone say you hate it. The very primary power behind antichrist kingdom started infiltrating the Church in the USA 89 years ago. Many Christians just plain aren't interested in their goals. Masons trace their roots to the Flood and have had one ambition and that is to re-establish the Days of Noah. We popularly call it antichrist's kingdom. Yet, the Southern Baptist has some 300-400 thousand Masons and plenty in high places. Roy Rogers is a Mason and he has preached with Dale for many years on TBN. Even Billy Graham was listed on a Mason's roster of famous Masons. It took some doing before spokes persons for his ministry denied it, but that doesn't release some suspicious facts about him. Masons are going to be the Church's worst nightmare very soon and I bet you haven't a clue after all look you can hate the sin of gays innocent victims of the Church for 700 years.
HOMOSEXUALITY Sexual preference for and sexual behavior between members of the same sex, considered to be an immoral life-style and behavior pattern throughout the biblical revelation. Only heterosexual preference and behavior patterns are approved in Scripture as conforming to God's plan in the creation of man and woman. Moreover, all sexual behavior is to take place in the context of marriage. Sex is considered good so long as it takes place within these parameters.
^i^ This is completely not true. The statement you just "QUOTED" is a very well conditioned part of your life. If you think this statement isn't bashing gays then tell me what is bashing to you? Is it hitting gays wish a baseball bat? Who made the parameters? The Church won't allow marriage not God or the Bible. The Church long since joined State to make it have an added legality by requiring a license. Both State and marriage by a pastor actually recent inventions. Most the world just kind of moved in together and so this was accepted be State and Church. What you read about of more ancient marriage were from more of an elite group. Prior to the 13th century the Church did not condemn gays and in fact if someone did they would rebuke that person. At the end of the 12th century the Church joined with State with their laws. During the process those in power wanted to in fact create a guarantee to rid unwanted people from powerful positions (which often backfired) they created the anti-gay doctrine which is very much like the reasons you use to condemn gays. Gays were also thrown in with what the Church saw as the worst humans ever, the Jews. If I asked you how does the Bible say to treat Jews wouldn't you tell me those that bless the Jews will be blessed and those that curse them will be cursed? So what happened to the gays then?
5 And they were scattered, because there is no shepherd: and they became meat to all the beasts of the field, when they were scattered. 6 My sheep wandered through all the mountains, and upon every high hill: yea, my flock was scattered upon all the face of the earth, and none did search or seek after them. (KJV)
^i^ This entire chapter summarizes how the Church treated gays. You think gays sin because you see what the Church did forcing them to make a life for themselves. The charges you make of sin on gays are counter by Jesus as committed by the Church and so he will correct the Church for this sin.
The Bible makes no distinction between what some today refer to as "homosexual orientation" and homosexual behavior. Homosexual desires or feelings are never mentioned as such in Scripture, but homosexual behavior is strongly condemned as a deviation from God's will for human beings. Therefore, it stands to reason that any homosexual inclination, feeling, or desire must be seriously dealt with as a potentially dangerous temptation much like those temptations of a heterosexual nature such as the desire to commit fornication or adultery.
^i^ You are entirely wrong. The so called acts are not caring loving relationships. Tell me why the entire orientation of straights is not sin? For the are large number of references to straight sexual acts of sin. Why do you divide gays into different terms. You condemn gays based entirely on sins like gang rape as you will state yourself. Why isn't all heterosexuals sin? You compared straight sex sin so by your way of judging all straights are sin because they are straight. You don't distinguish between married straights or non-married right? Can't you hear yourself? You say gay is sin because of gang rape. I am and never have committed gang rape. History is full of straights that do. Is straight sin then? So why is gay sin if some men tried to rape 2 angels? Of course you do not mention lots daughters husband stayed in the city and the daughters got their father Lot drunk and had sex with him and had his babies. Is straight sin because Lot's daughters raped him?
Biblical references to homosexuality are relatively few. Genesis 19:1-11 tells the story of an attempted homosexual gang rape at the house of Lot by the wicked men of Sodom. Verse 5 mentions specifically the homosexual intentions of the men of Sodom ("to know" referring to having sex). Lot considers this behavior wicked (v. 7). Raping his daughters was considered the lesser of two evils (v. 8). This evil of Sodom is mentioned elsewhere (Jer. 23:14; Ezek. 16:49-50; 2 Pet. 2:6-10; Jude 7) in the strongest terms of condemnation. The term "sodomy" has its roots here. A similar story is found in Judges 19:22-30.
^i^ My comments on Gen. 19 gen19.html
In the Holiness Code of Leviticus, homosexuality is considered an abomination (18:22), and such behavior was to be punished by death (20:13).
^i^ My comments on Leviticus leviticus.html
In the New Testament the early church also considered homosexuality as sinful behavior. Although Jesus never mentioned such behavior, probably because the problem never arose during His ministry among Jewish people, Paul clearly condemned homosexuality. Romans 1:26-27 considers homosexuality to be a sign of God's wrath upon blind sinfulness. Such behavior is considered a degrading passion, unnatural, an indecent act, and an error, even worthy of death (Rom. 1:32).
^i^ My comments on Romans romans.html
Some of the Corinthian Christians apparently had been homosexuals (1 Cor. 6:9-11). Having mentioned homosexuality, Paul stated that "such were some of you" (v. 11). Through faith in Christ they had been "washed," "sanctified," and "justified" (v. 11). Paul implied here that homosexual behavior is forgivable through the gospel and that any homosexual temptations should be resisted as seriously as those toward fornication or adultery (mentioned in v. 9). Paul also taught that homosexuality was contrary to "sound doctrine" (1 Tim. 1:10).
^i^ My comments on 1 Cor 6:9 cor6_9.html
The Bible does not recognize homosexuality as biologically constitutional or hereditary (as a kind of third sex), but sees its roots in the sinful nature of man-a psychosocial, learned behavior, expressing rebellion against God and calling for redemption. Such persons are responsible for their behavior. This is a very complex psychological problem with many possible roots or causes, calling for both Christian compassion on the part of God's people as well as God's redemptive power through the gospel. The ministry of the church to homosexuals should include: conversion, counseling, education, and support-group relationships.
^i^ My comments on the Garden adameve.html
C The Warning Against Moral Laxity, 6:9-20
(1 Cor 6:9 NIV) Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders
1 Cor 6:9: Vs. 6:9 male prostitutes nor homosexuals. Paul's warning is given against the background of incest, homosexuality, pederasty, and other unnatural sexual vices that were prevalent among the Greeks and Romans. Socrates and 14 of the first 15 Roman emperors practiced homosexuality. Paul did not want Christianity confused with sects that permitted such things.
C The Warning Against Moral Laxity, 6:9-20
(1 Cor 6:9 NASB) Or do you not know that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,
1 Cor 6:9: Vs. 6:9 effeminate, nor homosexuals. Both expressions refer to homosexuals, the first to those who allow themselves to be used unnaturally and the second to active homosexuals. Paul's warning is given against the background of incest, homosexuality, pederasty, and other unnatural sexual vices that were prevalent among the Greeks and Romans. Socrates and 14 of the first 15 Roman emperors practiced homosexuality. Paul did not want Christianity confused with sects that permitted such things.
(1 Tim 1:10 NASB) and immoral men and homosexuals and kidnappers and liars and perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound teaching,
1 Tim 1:10: Vs. 1:10 sound teaching. Lit., healthy or wholesome doctrine in contrast to false, which is diseased. See also 6:3; 2 Tim. 1:13; 4:3; Titus 1:9, 13; 2:1, 2.
^i^ Concerning your careless use of the text:
Gen 19:4-5 gang rape, murder, victims would have been angels
Judg 19:22 rarely used gang rape, murder, but victim was opposite sex.
Deut 23:17 don't be a temple prostitute
IKing 14:24 rarely used temple prostitute
IKing 15:12 rarely used temple prostitute
IKing 22:46 rarely used temple prostitute
II Ki 23:7 rarely used temple prostitute
Lev 18:22acts done in worshipping other gods, not comparing loving, caring , long term relationships, woman is a likely adulteress
Lev 20:13acts done in worshipping other gods, not comparing loving, caring , long term relationships, woman is a likely adulteress
Rom 1:27-28 Should be 18-32. adults turned from God, God changed them, results visible evil behavior
1 Cor 6:9 call boy and temple prostitute, 1950 original Greek removed, meant masturbation before 1850
1 Tim 1:10 temple prostitute
Jude 1:7 general sexual immorally of Sodom and Gomorrah with no hint of sexual orientation
MARRIAGE The biblical standard for marriage is a monogamous relationship in which a man and a woman share a lifetime commitment to each other, second only to their commitment to God. It is an unconditional, lifetime commitment. Jesus emphasized God's intention that marriage be a lifetime commitment (Mark 10:5-9; Matt. 19:4-9). He affirmed this as the principle of marriage inherent in divine creation (Gen. 2:24). Paul cited this key principle to show the sinfulness of sexual relations outside marriage (1 Cor. 6:12-20) and to emphasize the importance of self-giving love in marriage (Eph. 5:28). Genesis 2:24 emphasizes the oneness of the marriage relationship and the priority of the relationship over all others, including the relationship of the couple to their parents. Marriage is also for companionship (Gen. 2:18-23). Paul described the kind of mutual submission that should characterize the marriage relationship (Eph. 5:21-33). Although the husband is head of the home, his role is modeled after the role of Christ as Head of the church, who "loved the church and gave Himself for it" (Eph. 5:25).
^i^ My comments covering your ideas is found at related.html
^i^ You simply have memorized the 700 year old anti-gay Church doctrine. You have a brain use it. Your statement : "Please also understand that I do not promote gay-bashing" is the biggest fib. What is it then if you throw those verses at a gay person but bashing.
bashed, bash·ing, bash·es verb, transitive
1.To strike with a heavy, crushing blow.
2.Informal. To criticize (another) harshly, accusatorially, and threateningly: "He bashed the . . . government unmercifully over the . . . spy affair" (Lally Weymouth).
To engage in harsh, accusatory, threatening criticism.
The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Third Edition copyright © 1992 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Electronic version licensed from INSO Corporation; further reproduction and distribution restricted in accordance with the Copyright Law of the United States. All rights reserved.
^i^ Sounds like bashing to me. You used the Bible like a club didn't you? Not a single personable touch from you such as your own studying. Where is your Greek and Hebrew and where is your history lessons? Where is your personal studies of the ex-gay ministries and the gay community? Look how you compare. You say every gay alive commits gang rape. Don't you know the granpas and boys and men were straight in Sodom? You ask me for my corrections. Its is on line, please go and read what you asked me for.
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