Gays For Jesus
Scott writes: I would like the root of the discussion to be whether living a gay lifestyle is sin. The reason for this is that it is the root of straight Christians' contention with you.
Article Date: Sunday, December 07, 1997
Comments in reply to a TV viewer's e-mail
From: "Scott Quilici." (firstname.lastname@example.org)
To: email@example.com (none working)
Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 10:09:41 PST
Subject: Saw your program this morning...
Let's have a discussion without stereotypes or kneejerk-reaction answers, as you suggest. I would like the root of the discussion to be whether living a gay lifestyle is sin. The reason for this is that it is the root of straight Christians' contention with you.
^i^ What are the facts? The root would have to begin at the verses used to condemn gays. After you are finished with these verses then you can travel on to other non-specific verses that has nothing in them that refers to gays. This I call "run to the Garden" if all else fails. There really are only a very few verses used by the Church. Scott don't try to get smart with me and say you are smarter than 700 years of anti-gay Church doctrine. You said you want to discuss the issue. Glancing over your e-mail I find it is not discussion you want, but that your mind is convinced, so I am not going to persuade you, but answer you so that other that read this can learn some things. Here are the 13 verses:
The Anti-gay Church700 year old Doctrine in a nut shell!
Gen 19:4-5 gang rape, murder, victims would have been angels
Judg 19:22 rarely used gang rape, murder, but victim was opposite sex.
Deut 23:17 don't be a temple prostitute
IKing 14:24 rarely used temple prostitute
IKing 15:12 rarely used temple prostitute
IKing 22:46 rarely used temple prostitute
II Ki 23:7 rarely used temple prostitute
Lev 18:22 acts done in worshipping other gods, not comparing loving, caring , long term relationships, woman is a likely adulteress
Lev 20:13 acts done in worshipping other gods, not comparing loving, caring , long term relationships, woman is a likely adulteress
Rom 1:27-28 Should be 18-32. adults turned from God, God changed them, results visible evil behavior
1 Cor 6:9 call boy and temple prostitute, 1950 original Greek removed, meant masturbation before 1850
1 Tim 1:10 temple prostitute
Jude 1:7 general sexual immorally of Sodom and Gomorrah with no hint of sexual orientation
^i^ It is from this base a sane discussion can be made. If you pursue other verses without first considering these then you attack this problem backwards. You have already assumed gay is sin and so all verses dealing with sin you have already heap onto gays.
Some people say that being gay is congenital, even hereditary. I don't believe that has been proven.
^i^ And who made you a scientist?
The American Psychological Associationreleased a Statement on
Homosexuality in 1994-JULY. Their first two paragraphs are:
The research on homosexuality is very clear. Homosexuality is neither mental illness nor moral depravity. It is simply the way a minority of our population expresses human love and sexuality. Study after study documents the mental health of gay men and lesbians. Studies of judgment, stability, reliability, and social and vocational adaptiveness all show that gay men and lesbians function every bit as well as heterosexuals.
Nor is homosexuality a matter of individual choice. Research suggests that the homosexual orientation is in place very early in the life cycle, possibly even before birth. It is found in about ten percent of the population, a figure which is surprisingly constant across cultures, irrespective of the different moral values and standards of a particular culture. Contrary to what some imply, the incidence of homosexuality in a population does not appear to change with new moral codes or social mores. Research findings suggest that efforts to repair homosexuals are nothing more than social prejudice garbed in psychological accouterments.
In 1994-AUGUST, The APA sent a proposal to one of its committees that would declare as unethical:
1. attempts by a psychologist to change a person's sexual orientation through therapy, or
2. referral of a patient to a therapist or organization who attempts to change people's sexual orientation
- The American Medical Association (AMA) released a report in 1994-DEC which calls for "nonjudgmental recognition of sexual orientation by physicians." They suggest that psychotherapy be directed help homosexuals "become comfortable with their sexual orientation."
- The American Psychiatric Association took homosexuality off of its list of mental illnesses many decades ago.
An American Psychological Association Statement of Homosexuality
The research on homosexuality is very clear. Homosexuality is neither mental illness nor moral depravity. It is simply the way a minority of our population expresses human love and sexuality. Study after study documents the mental health of gay men and lesbians. Studies of judgment, stability, reliability, and social and vocational adaptiveness all show that gay men and lesbians function every bit as well as heterosexuals.
Nor is homosexuality a matter of individual choice. Research suggests that the homosexual orientation is in place very early in the life cycle, possibly even before birth. It is found in about ten percent of the population, a figure which is surprisingly constant across cultures, irrespective of the different moral values and standards of a particular culture. Contrary to what some imply, the incidence of homosexuality in a population does not appear to change with new moral codes or social mores. Research findings suggest that efforts to "repair" homosexuals are nothing more than social prejudice garbed in psychological accoutrements.
All targets of discrimination, be they blacks, women, handicapped, or religious sects, have a uniquely horrible dimension to their suffering. This is true for gay men and lesbians as well. Psychologically, sexuality and sexual orientation represent life forces which form the most sensitive bedrock of our being. They not only shape our attitudes and our passions, but they are so fundamental to our personality structure that they, in large part, determine our sense of personal cohesiveness and our level of comfort in the world. They are the driving force with which we love, work, and create.
For patients [in psychotherapy], the societal assumption that homosexuality [is] sick and/or immoral creates an emotional, sensual, and spiritual prison where self-expression, love, and the deepest forms of human connectedness [are] stultified through anguishing guilt and self-loathing. For those of us in psychology who have had this kind of experience working with gay men and lesbians, the impact has been quite profound. For over two decades now, the American Psychological Association has advocated the elimination of discrimination against gay men and lesbians.
Finally, if one thinks about the vast real problems confronting our society and attacking our family structure-problems such as family violence, divorce, drug and alcohol abuse, child abuse, homelessness, and isolation, it becomes clear that individuals who are obsessed with how a minority of our citizens express love and sexuality have, indeed, established a most peculiar set of priorities, both for themselves and for others.
Healthy and secure heterosexuals do not feel threatened by homosexuality. Healthy heterosexuals don't need to oppress homosexuals. Healthy heterosexuals don't need to "repair" homosexuals.
The real issue confronting our society today is not why people seek love and understanding as they do, but why some seem so unable to love and understand.
From a statement published January 26, 1990, by Bryant Welch, J.D., Ph.D., Executive Director for Professional Practice, American Psychological Association.
^i^ I know those that think gay is sin HATE the APA, but that does not make this organization a bunch of liars or people who do not do proper research. NOW, you take Ph.D.s in theology and we have a totally different set of circumstances of professional. The APA must follow strict guide lines and pass tests to get licensed. So, though you hate them they have expertise while Christian Psychologists that condemn gays use the 700 year old anti-gay Church doctrine as its based, not scientific study. You can't through the baby out with the bath water. Facts and research can't not be undone. For you to blatantly say " I don't believe that has been proven" tells me you have already condemned gays to death anyway. If you are so able to say this statement, please pass on to me your credential, or don't be so quick to add a comment of your opinion. Besides, have you proven Jesus is real? How much evidence do you need? Faith won't hold up in a court of law will it? Evidence demands a verdict and it points ever more strongly with each new study that gays are born that way. However, I am gay and you are not, (unless latent, you know the stronger you fight gays the more lightly you are fighting what you are), I lived nearly 51 years and you are going to tell me something about gays, scientifically or otherwise? I know the Bible upside and backwards and right side up and forwards on the gay issues and you will try to tell me it can't be proven. I am proof and 600 million others are proof. You don't accept the facts because you can't handle this fact you so much wish it to stay sin as you have always believed. It ain't gonna go away and just wait till when God moves. Do you think the straight Church has a monopoly on Jesus? Do you think, while you are going to you church and seeing the move of God (if that happens in your church, as for me my Assemblies of God background has given me plenty of experience with the move of God in church), that when gays go to gay churches, that they aren't seeing the move of God? Do you think in my almost 24 years, as a baptized in the Holy Spirit Pentecostal Christian, that I have not personally seen the move of God in my life and ministry? When you tuned into my TV program what did you think? That I was some fool? Yes, I am a fool for Christ. I'll follow him where ever he may lead. Do you think I don't have physical Miracles, financial miracles, ministry miracles, and do you think that me being Pentecostal hasn't led me to many men and women of God with gift of the Spirit that have called me out to prophesy? What part of my life is in question to you? You see the word "gay" at my name and so judge. You want discussions about this issue and you are concern with proof? What is proof to a Christian? What is faith? Is it not by faith we expect Miracles or healing, which I have had 3 major healings, isn't it by faith we accept a WORD from God through the Word of Knowledge and Wisdom? What part of FAITH is proof Jesus moved in our lives? It is your word that says Jesus is with you? Why should I believe you? You don't believe me. Had you believed my witness then the issue about homosexuality could not arise to you for you had seen my walk. Do you want to discuss the Bible? I will at length, I love the Word of God and hold it dear to me. I have read it more than I can count. What part don't I understand that you can tell me? The gay part? I have spent 24 years researching the gay part, can you tell me something I have not studied is all aspects? The History, the people's usage in the day it was used, what part would you like me to learn that I haven't read from the point of view of both sides and my own study? Please teach me. Each verse has a usage over the last 2000 years, when did you get the learned wisdom to tell me every one except has to be wrong unless they believe it as you?
Let us merely prove or disprove that homosexuality is sin. Let us stay away from arguments like (as your logo at the end of the program states) "600 millions gays worldwide" and "Gay is not sin." These cannot hold water, as the saying goes, for there are millions of people worldwide who sincerely believe that Elvis Presley is still alive, and the sheer number of them does not make them correct any more than saying "Elvis is alive" over and over makes him alive. There is more than enough evidence to the contrary.
^i^ See how you are.. Do I arbitrarily insert a 10% figure? Why do I use such figures? I must have a reason. It's in my credits for a reason you know. Do you really believe the 1% theory of homophobes? 1% can't even support the ex-gay ministries that exist today. Like I said I am almost 51. How many gay parades do you think I have been to? Hey, this is just one example. Every major cities' gay parades exceeds 10%. Seattle 500 population 80,000 in the parade while al across the country they are having parades to. A FACT most gay don't go to gay parades. Most gay don't go to the packed out gay bars. How can 1% fill so many gay churches? Seattle has over 300 gay groups, how does 1% support that. This does not even consider the many scientific studies which homophobics would accept the methods of coming up with a percent rate had the same group did a study on Church statistics. Who do you believe? Only the studies that make it sound good for what you want? I have studied into ancient times and gay were never far off. Ever heard of "eunuchs"? Bet you think they just don't have a ding dong or something right?
The Kama Sutra: Part II Chapter 9
OF THE AUPARISHTAKA OR MOUTH CONGRESS
THERE are two kinds of eunuchs, those that are disguised as males, and those that are disguised as females. Eunuchs disguised as females imitate their dress, speech, gestures, tenderness, timidity, simplicity, softness and bashfulness. The acts that are done on the jaghana or middle parts of women, are done in the mouths of these eunuchs, and this is called Auparishtaka. These eunuchs derive their imaginable pleasure, and their livelihood from this kind of congress, and they lead the life of courtesans. So much concerning eunuchs disguised as females.
Eunuchs disguised as males keep their desires secret, and when they wish to do anything they lead the life of shampooers. Under the pretence of shampooing, a eunuch of this kind embraces and draws towards himself the thighs of the man whom he is shampooing, and after this he touches the joints of his thighs and his jaghana, or central portions of his body. Then, if he finds the lingam of the man erect, he presses it with his hands and chaffs him for getting into that state. If after this, and after knowing his intention, the man does not tell the eunuch to proceed, then the latter does it of his own accord and begins the congress. If however he is ordered by the man to do it, then he disputes with him, and only consents at last with difficulty.
The following eight things are then done by the eunuch one after the other:
^i^ Those 8 things are just description which explain the sex in more detail. This is just a excerpt from the ancient writing, the point being is that there is a historical record that "eunuchs" are considered gay:
Matt 19:12 For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother's womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it. (KJV)
^i^ Jesus says most Christian won't accept his teaching here:
Matt 19:11 But he said unto them, All men cannot receive this saying, save they to whom it is given. (KJV)
Your statements that the Ex-gay ministries have very little in common with real gay life in regards to being well adjusted may have merit. Not being familiar with anyone in the gay community, I would have to accept what you say on this point. However, there are people in any lifestyle who are well adjusted and those who are not. To use an extreme example, there are murderers who are not at all depressed about what they do, but instead happy and excited every time they elude capture. This does not make them right, of course. If you are a true Christian (I mean this in the generic, not any attack on you personally), you accept the Scriptures as faithfully and accurately recorded words from the Creator of the Universe. They must be accepted in their entirety, though. If you believe God is who He says He is, and you accept Jesus as who He says He is and you have accepted Him as your Savior, you cannot limit Him in any way. If He is all that, then you cannot pick and choose anything in His Word that you like or don't like. God is God, and He will not be mocked. In my home church, we call this "Kissing the Cross." No matter how uncomfortable something in God's Word is for me, I must choose to follow it or not. If I choose to follow it, I will grow in God and He will use it to purify me of some nasty thing, whatever it is. If I choose to not follow it, I am in disobedience to God. I am sure you can agree with this.
^i^ I beg to differ concerning happy peaceful murderers. I have never seen any. Some after getting caught do accept Jesus and straight forward without anyone explaining, besides already knowing in their hearts beforehand that murder is wrong, but now are really remorseful. You example is absurd. On the gay side we are talking hundreds of millions, a slight difference. Like you said you don't know any gays. I do. I also have known ex-gays that are now ex-ex-gays. As ex-gays the depression and hopelessness escalates tremendously. The bisexuals have a slightly better time at trying to live as straight. The excitement you elude to about getting away with murder is not peace and joy or happiness. It is a adrenaline surge like when you shoot up with a drug. You know that? Most murderers do it in a rage of hate or well planned scheme to rid them of what they think is a horrible person. Others are paid. No how what kind of murderer you look at you can not find a well adjusted murderer. Some are caught decades later and they have lived in fear of capture all their lives. How can you say some sin groups are well adjusted to try to justify why gays are well adjust and it still is sin. The ones that really appear well adjusted in their sins are born again Christian while they persecute the innocent. History shows time and again this very thing. Persecute Women, Blacks, Indians, Mixed Married Couples, Foreigners, and of course Gays, etc. In these cases the Christian felt more like doing God's service and felt righteous for it. Here you are talking about God's Word as true, yet you apparently accept "sodomite" , a Bible word, as meaning "homosexual", WHY?
6945 qadesh (kaw-dashe'); from 6942; a (quasi) sacred person, i.e. (technically) a (male) devotee (by prostitution) to licentious idolatry: KJV-- sodomite, unclean.
^i^ The word mean "temple prostitute" period. There are tons of recorded history on this subject. I found just yesterday more confirmation on the date the Church began condemning gays as I have been saying there is a 700 year old anti-gay Church doctrine which you for one has been conditioned to accept. Here is an excerpt from the Student Reference Library:
Religion has been of central importance in shaping this (anti-gay) climate. Until the thirteenth century, the Christian tradition was ambiguous in its attitude towardhomosexuality. But with the recodification of canon law under the influence of Thomas Aquinas, new attitudes set in. Homosexual behavior was thereafter excoriated as a heinous sin. The English carried these beliefs to North America, and the power of religion in early America guaranteed that such beliefs would shape colonial attitudes.
^i^ This " recodification" that began at the end of the 12th century was the joining of Church law with State law. With the inclusion that gay would be sin scandals were created as people fought to take over power positions in the Church and State. They accused leaders of being gay and so they were forced from power. It was quite the dog eat dog world in the power struggles then. ( Well I guess it is the same really today too). I have attempted to give you some facts. Bible and otherwise. My guess is that you as a Christian that believes gay is sin will not even consider for a moment any fact that comes to you that may exonerate gays. Anti-gay believers are the ones picking and choosing what to use out of context to lie about gays. Romans 1 is a perfect example. Most use this chapter to condemn gays. It is always verses 26-27, but never 18-32. It is very strange that such clear description are completely rejected. 18-25 explains that some people created gods and worship them as while adults when they as children grew up knowing God. After God changed them and they behaved in vile passions the results of this behavior are clearly explained as well in verses 28-32. How can you get more exact in showing these verses are not talking about gays. 600 millions gays worldwide and none of their accusers bother to check out behaviors of gays. The facts today and though out history show that gays are good upstanding citizens doing good deeds all their lives and a great benefits to society. This is truth and real and facts. Yet the Church lies and gives false testimony about gays continually. If gay were indeed sin then it would be reversed, when you check out the lives and behaviors of gays you would find evil all the day long. As for Christian gays, they love God very much. They follow Jesus even through the hatred they receive from many of their straight brothers and sisters in Christ Jesus. I can certainly speak for myself. I know my heart and my life. I know my failings. I know my love for the Bible and God and His Son. I know the Word of God. I doubt you could find a place in the Bible that I could not preach on concerning what God has taught me through His Word on that verse. I am not bragging, I just know the verse anyone brings up to me. If on the spot I don't quit know a quick answer as soon as I read it on the context then I would know it. Recently someone tried to ask me about a verse quote in a "Victory at Sea" program. I wasn't quite sure, because of the version used. I told him I could find it because I knew where general area it would be in and I'd get back with him. It took about 5 seconds to find and instantly when I saw it place I knew every detail of the context and setting. I came to God, rather he came to me, because I wasn't looking for Him so I thought, based on TRUTH. Christians that believe gay is sin so often accuse me of justifying my gayness with the Word by twisting scripture. It just amazes me that anyone can image coming to Christ for anything other than the truth. This twisting the Word bit is their only way to hold on to the lie they believe about gays. I gave you a list of verses used to condemn gays. Why is it so difficult to research these verses. Maybe because being straight often means you can't understand same sex sex so it just seems so unthinkable for a straight person to imagine it is not sin. Straights do know what it is like to love their spouse, so why can't straights then understand gays? It is the same! Just imagine loving your spouse, then you can image what a gay couple feels in their relationship. Evil means very specifically something very bad. Because many straights just think it is disgusting does not make it evil. To be evil it has to be the truth as based in the Word of God. Gays just are not condemned in the Bible and they are good people in real life.
Surely you are familiar with Jeremiah 17:9 that says the heart is deceitful above all things. This means all mankind. You, me, Billy Graham, Charles Manson, everyone. This cannot be refuted. You could probably refute Genesis 18&19 as God's disapproval of homosexuality by saying that He destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah because of their evil, but He didn't say being gay was the ONLY evil there. It was the only one mentioned. I can see that argument. Now, please explain to me in specifics how homosexuality is not sin.
^i^ Lets review your verse:
Jer 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it? (KJV)
^i^ As I just explained gays are very good people. To play this sin game has no point. Jer. 17:9 does not state the person is evil because they are gay or straight. It says in context that the condition of mankind's heart is evil. As you said it matters not who the person is. Does this mean straight is sin then? People are sinners. Jesus loved us while we were yet sinners. We can not save ourselves or even know we need saving unless drawn by the Holy Spirit and then accept Jesus' worl on the Cross. What is really bad is the assumption gay is sin based on like your example. A condition of everyone's heart or that a male street prostitute condemnation by the Bible means everyone gay person is sin. The straights I talk to (hundreds of thousands) seem to think if the Bible say a call boy or temple prostitute is condemned, then based on the two parties were men then every gay person is sin. How can this be? It is condemning prostituting. When I drive to work nearly everyday, near the KING 5 building, I see straight women prostitutes. Tell me, does this make every straight person sin, just because they are straight? It is like straights that think gay is sin can't tell the difference between a loving, caring, long term relationship like a marriage from acts of prostitution. Gen. 18 does not even hint to sex, you are wrong here. Gen. 18 mainly is the story about Sara getting pregnant and God with 2 angels are talking with Abraham about how evil Sodom is. Abraham asked God if even for the sake of 10 righteous people God would not destroy The two plus cities. Tell me, when you here the would evil or sin is the first thing that comes to your mind "gays"? I think there are quite a few sins around don't you, why do you have to assume it means "gays"? Because you are conditioned to believe this way. What does every man from every quarter including boys and grandpas mean to you? Where did the boys come from? Were all the women lesbians then? What is the Hebrew for man here?
582 'enowsh (en-oshe'); from 605; properly, a mortal (and thus differing from the more dignified 120); hence, a man in general (singly or collectively): KJV-- another, X [blood-] thirsty, certain, chap [-man]; divers, fellow, X in the flower of their age, husband, (certain, mortal) man, people, person, servant, some (X of them), + stranger, those, + their trade. It is often unexpressed in the English versions, especially when used in apposition with another word . Compare 376.
^i^ Then besides men in this verse it says people:
5971 `am (am); from 6004; a people (as a congregated unit); specifically, a tribe (as those of Israel); hence (collectively) troops or attendants; figuratively, a flock: KJV-- folk, men, nation, people.
^i^ So why does it have to absolutely mean males? Lets look at other word in these verses:
3045 yada` (yaw-dah'); a primitive root; to know (properly, to ascertain by seeing); used in a great variety of senses, figuratively, literally, euphemistically and inferentially (including observation, care, recognition; and causatively, instruction, designation, punishment, etc.) [as follow]: KJV-- acknowledge, acquaintance (-ted with), advise, answer, appoint, assuredly, be aware, [un-] awares, can [-not], certainly, comprehend, consider, X could they, cunning, declare, be diligent, (can, cause to) discern, discover, endued with, familiar friend, famous, feel, can have, be [ig-] norant, instruct, kinsfolk, kinsman, (cause to let, make) know, (come to give, have, take) knowledge, have [knowledge], (be, make, make to be, makeself) known, + be learned, + lie by man, mark, perceive, privy to, X prognosticator, regard, have respect, skilful, shew, can (man of) skill, be sure, of a surety, teach, (can) tell, understand, have [understanding], X will be, wist, wit, wot.
^i^ Hmmm . . . Where does it say they wanted sex??????????????????? It sounds like they wanted to know why these angels came to their city. There is a Bible fact that word got around fact. I joking say that someone on a cell phone called someone in Sodom to warn them that 2 men were on the way to pass some sort of judgement on the cities in the area. The fact is often in the Bible stories the enemies already knew what the what the other side was planning. Now of course, though other "knew" means clearly sex because the verse included that made the woman pregnant, we still can accept that ALL, was it 10, 20, 50, 100, 1000, 10,000, men did intend to do something involving their ding dongs. Do you know how big the cities were? They were considered fairly big cities. If we need proof that ding dongs were involved:
Jude 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. (KJV)
^i^ Fornication, does it mean gay?
1608 ekporneuo (ek-porn-yoo'-o); from 1537 and 4203; to be utterly unchaste: KJV-- giveself over to fornication.
^i^ No it does not at all. Anyone can be unchaste.
chaste (châst) adjective
1.Morally pure in thought or conduct; decent and modest.
2.a. Not having experienced sexual intercourse; virginal. b. Abstaining from unlawful sexual intercourse. c. Abstaining from sexual intercourse; celibate.
3.Pure or simple in design or style; austere.
[Middle English, from Old French, from Latin
- chaste¹ly adverb
- chaste¹ness noun
The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Third Edition copyright © 1992 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Electronic version licensed from INSO Corporation; further reproduction and distribution restricted in accordance with the Copyright Law of the United States. All rights reserved.
^i^ The angels were indeed different.
2087 heteros (het'-er-os); of uncertain affinity; (an-, the) other or different: KJV-- altered, else, next (day), one, (an-) other, some, strange.
^i^ Sure you can argue that they did not know they were angels. Somebody knew, it is written so we can read it. We go a head and assume they were going to use their ding dong on them. You want it to mean gay sex. Lets see if it is gay sex ok?
Gen 19:7 And said, I pray you, brethren, do not so wickedly. (KJV)
7489 ra` a` (raw-ah'); a primitive root; properly, to spoil (literally, by breaking to pieces); figuratively, to make (or be) good for nothing, i.e. bad (physically, socially or morally): KJV-- afflict, associate selves [by mistake for 7462], break (down, in pieces), + displease, (be, bring, do) evil (doer, entreat, man), showself friendly [by mistake for 7462], do harm, (do) hurt, (behaveself, deal) ill, X indeed, do mischief, punish, still, vex, (do) wicked (doer, -ly), be (deal, do) worse. 7490 re` a` (Aramaic) (reh-ah'); corresponding to 7489: KJV-- break, bruise.
^i^ Scott certainly you know gays do not behave this way towards their lovers and they do not go out to rape and murder in gangs straight men. The context describes no loving caring relationship at all and the victim were going to be gang raped to death unless you think that who knows how many, 1000s maybe, ganging up on 2 men would not hurt them at all. You can check the Bible on itself to see if their was love intended, the end result of a similar event starting in chapter 19:
Judg 20:6And I took my concubine, and cut her in pieces, and sent her throughout all the country of the inheritance of Israel: for they have committed lewdness and folly in Israel. (KJV)
^i^ Doesn't it disgusts you to place 600 million gays as rapist and murderers? Straights do indeed gang rape people to death. History is full of it. Wars have it all the time. Some straight men in prisons make women out of men so the can mount them to dominate women in proxy. These men in prison are straight when they went in and straight when they leave. Its is well documented what some men do while incarcerated. Sodom and Gomorrha were straight cities. Why do so many that believe gay is sin make these cities gay cities? Abraham rescued Lot by saving the King of Sodom in a war. He also conducted negotiations on payment of services (basically food used during the war). Other comments hint to commerce that would involve families. And unless you want to assume these "gay" men stole boys from neighboring cities how do you account for Gen. 19:4 "young" it even means girl.
5288 na` ar (nah'-ar); from 5287; (concretely) a boy (as active), from the age of infancy to adolescence; by implication, a servant; also (by interch. of sex), a girl (of similar latitude in age): KJV-- babe, boy, child, damsel [from the margin], lad, servant, young (man).
^i^ I would like you too show where gay was mentioned in Gen. 19. As for more details on this and the other verses please go to my web sight http://www.geocities.com/westhollywood/9647 . You will also find links to other related topics and my comment on the Church in the Last Days.
Patiently waiting for your answer,
Scott in Bothell
Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 23:16:16 PST
Subject: Your letter
My intent in writing to you is still to have a discussion on a specific topic, characterized by logic, courtesy and direct answers, uninterrupted by words that do not apply to the discussion at hand.
^i^ Remember you have no experience concerning the gay community and so have no leg to stand in arguments to condemn gays.
I condemn no one. Also, I do not need to live among nor be intimate with murderers to know that what they do is sin. Let us leave that argument behind us.
^i^ As for the Bible It absolutely does not condemn gays.
Although the words, "Thou shalt not have homosexual relations" is not found in the Bible, we can learn from the examples God gives us. God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah because the people were evil. Because homosexuality was mentioned in detail, God's opinion of it may safely be inferred. In addition, it was a man and a woman who were commanded to be fruitful and multiply in the garden of Eden. Further, Leviticus 18 goes to great lengths to prohibit sex between men and women of inappropriate relationships. Both of these are very good examples.
^i^ It was heterosexuals that intended to gang rape the angels to death and gays don't and never have gang raped anyone to death. But straights have extremely often. Is straight sin? Rapists are not an example of gays.
a) Where is the proof that it was heterosexuals wanted to rape the angels? There is no motivation for a straight to commit a gay act.
b) I don't believe you can speak for all gays, past and present, as to whether any act was committed.
^i^ NO PROOF? Don't you read at all? I do get into to this a little in the above comments. And I sure can speak for gays a lot better than you can. If gays commented rape and killing their victims then history would have recorded it. The recorded history show an extremely low incident rate. Just like today. Nearly every serial killer is straight. You can find gay serial killers, but in comparison the number are so few. Technically there should be at and around 10% of the cases, but my best research shows sexual abuse is around 3% gay and 97% straight. Serious abuse seems to be almost all are straight. I have good sources of research and spent a few years personally looking into sexual abuse. How many years of research have you put in?
So far the "stereotypes or kneejerk-reaction" seems to be coming right away from you.
What did I say but to request a discussion using a common ground, namely the entirety of God's Word and a willingness to deeply examine our lives in light of it?
^i^ It would have been refreshing to hear you ask some questions concerning my walk than just jump in as quite hostile attacking gays.
Again, I did not attack anyone.
^i^ Gen 19 shows you haven't spent one caring moment in concern for people.
What does this mean?
The rest of your letter describing the sins of Lot's daughters in Genesis 19 has no bearing here, nor does it answer the question, "Is homosexuality sin?" Please try harder. You haven't convinced me.
^i^ So in other words you can have the freedom to condemn 600 million people based on a story of gang rape where the angels host's daughters raped their father, but lets just forget about that. If you say these are gays and they were trying to rape two people and therefore every gay is sin, then why not when Lot's daughters raped him that it doesn't make every straight sin? It is exactly the same thing. Except the sin is worse for the straights. It involved incest. It is rape because they got the father too drunk to defend himself which they knew he would and so that is why they made him too drunk to fight them off.
Scott John 16:13
^i^ Lets check it out . . .
John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. (KJV)
^i^ I do not like to boast, but for your sake I will. First, what church background are you. I am Pentecostal with now almost 24 years in the Assemblies of God the early half I didn't miss a meeting or guest speaker or workshop and I went to all kinds of meetings by many relating organizations. I grew up in Christ with TBN. Many today condemn TBN, I don't care how off track they may becoming, but for their first decade I spent lots of time listening to them and going to their rallies. I visited many churches and spent years visiting the Indian reservation. I have been called out hundreds of times for a Word from God. From the well know to unknown ministers that just loved the Lord. These prophets called me specifically up front as God told them to call ME up front and God has a Message for me. Are you willing to condemn all these prophets? Had you been there, and if you are Pentecostal yourself then you'd would have no grounds to reject these prophets as meeting the Bible standards and the person credentials for these to minister in this manner. All hundreds all wrong? What do you think they prophesied over me? Did they condemn the way I was living? Did they cast satan out of me? Did they give any warning of any kind about me and my life? Was I less gay then? They always in the Spirit, do you know what this means or will you second guess it a way to some less meaning, prophesied about my calling and gave details. They always included how God knew the depth of my love for Him. They always included the depth of God's love for me. These ministries of course called others forward. It is interesting to here what God has to say to others as well. I mention this for your benefit so you can perhaps get a glimpse of a perplexity you can't find good reason to reject. God specifically emphasized His love for me and my love for Him in a fashion that listeners come away with there is something very deep Spiritually that bonds us together. Now as other received their Word from God, mostly it was, though very neat and important without question, always relating to more mundane blessing concerning normal everyday life and ordinary callings. One example of mine is at a home Bible study of various Pentecostal pastors (straight, would have been anti-gay had they not known me or the son of a pastor that invited me). They knew I was gay, I had led one of their gay sons to Christ and so was a special guest to learn with them for nearly a year. They regular had a time to minister in the operation of the gifts. One of several times one Prophesied that I would have entry to places that they could never dream of having entrance too and detailing some of the things involved in this. And in fact I do minister in ways they could never have the chance to minister in. I am not talking about a gay ministry, though this too is part of it. But I can get right into the hearts of pastors all across this nation. Lots of prophecies has come to past. Lots more will come to pass. Many things I can see what is about to happen and things are revealed to me unwrapping the future of the Church. I won't go into the details, but my point is you would have to call all the straight men of God up to now liars and false prophets if you were to say gay is sin. Are you able to condemn so many people? I guess you are as your e-mail has no problem condemning 600 million to hell with out hope in God. It is very difficult to understand how so many people that believe gay is sin can so easily reject someone's Walk. I say I am almost 24 years old in Christ Jesus. I love him very much and have a personal relationship with him. He has taken me through many trails. I had the privilege to here told to me that if I preached Jesus as the Christ they would send me to prison. This person had the power in her hand at the time, by writing a note down on a piece of paper I'd be in prison for preaching Jesus as the Christ, however, she said teaching him as a good teacher was just find, she also though he was a good teacher. This is here in the USA can you believe that? God is so good that same night he sent a pastor to me to tell me I'd have authority over such a person one day and also he said his church prayed about me as to what God would have them to give me and it was a Hebrew/ Greek dictionary. At the time I could never afford such luxury to have such a book. It was an answer to prayer as I sought God to have access to the original words with definitions. Now, I just push one or two keys and I have that and more. . . God is so good. I know what the deepest valleys are like and have had some mountain top experiences. I can't understand how people can backslide, can you? I praised God in my darkest hour, in the black of night with tears of pain of thinking my whole future was lost and all my past a waste. Yet, in this darkest moment God sent someone to me first to say Jesus wants to teach me about fear and I can say no and that would be just fine. I accepted and within two week or less I was cast into my darkest moment. All along the way Jesus was with seeing to it I had the right help through each phase till the it was over a number of years later. Jesus never left and never condemned me, but always was there for me with comfort and more. My position was raised to president even though I told God no because I knew He'd do that, but I said thy will be done and zap I was president. Why should a gay person have such blessings? I am skimming over things and at some point I may write my story in detail, but for now the point is, if gay is sin, then WHY ME? Why should I have such blessings. I have never been hurt in anyway because I am gay though I am public. I have heard others hurt at the hands of gay bashers, but the only abuse I have had is because I step out into the public and leave access to me via e-mail, telephone, mail and so I hear everything, but otherwise I have never had problems concerning being gay. Jobs, renting, church, anything, family. Why am I blessed in sickness and health in all areas? Why is God so much involved in my relationship with my lover? I have studied 24 years on this gay issue, beside lots of other areas of the Bible. I have also loved truth from as far as I can remember and so I loved learning things covering many subjects. I have been many places too. Why is it that Christians that believe gay is sin reject truth? Why do they reject people that has a Walk with Christ? Why do they reject their own if their own operated in the Gifts of the Spirit and prophesy good things about a gay person? Why if I give account of my faith it is so easy for you to reject any possibility that you might be wrong concerning gays. It doesn't matter how you feel about gays it still isn't sin and I could care less, then WHY do I spend so much time with people like you? I'll tell you why. God told me too. I was very willing to wait till Heaven and let God show you then, but this was not God's idea. He has the opposite idea. He says you won't get to Heaven until this message has had the effect that it is meant too, and that won't be what the Church is wishing for. You can't even accept the milk I am giving concerning gays, how can you accept the meat of the future of the Church? You think I am crazy now watch how much more crazy you think I am regarding the Church's future. It's all there in the Bible and over and over we are told to believe God, to hang in there till the end. But if we think it should be a different end how can we hang in there? Soon many in the Church will think Jesus lied, because this new Jesus seems to answer everything so well. Standing fast, holding fast, persevering, happens to mean something. Nobody can take you out of Jesus had, and he will never forsake you, so the way you fall is you forsake him. This is a faith thing, if you stop believing then you lose eternity. You think you can't stop believing. I tell you you will be thrown into confusion very soon concerning your faith. The Masons for now 80 some years has very distinctly planned and accomplished infiltrating the Church in the USA. They made it a clear goal to especially in Sunday schools get in personally to ever so subtly slightly modify the teaching. It would appear almost no difference over the years, but enough so that a good part of the Church will be ready to accept antichrist in the way he will present himself soon. What's more the water will be stopped. For the first time Christian will not have access to the water they have had for 2000 years. This in conjunction with the plans already successful in the Church. (they have not failed) ever so many Christian will be so confused and ripe to slip into antichrist camp. God has a plan to help restore His people by the very ones they have persecuted. The message will be simple Jesus still is Jesus and has not changed, though can't be felt as easily because the water has been turned off. We always relied heavily on the Holy Spirit to connect us to Jesus. We were suppose to sink our roots deep into Jesus, but instead just enjoyed a party in Christ. The day is almost upon us that the water will be shut off. For the first time shallow roots and deep roots can be distinguished. You can't tell now the difference because they do the same thing, connect to the living water. Then you will know, but if you don't have deep roots you will feel deceived by Jesus. How can you have deep roots now? The lie is ever so subtle. We are told we won't be here. Antichrist at first is so GOOD. You will feel him and feel his healing force, though counterfeit. He will vanish and appear thousands of miles away. He will convince a large number of Christians. But God will have a special group of messengers to explains things, but mostly they'll be rejected by the Church too.
^i^ Below was a quick reply to "Scott Q." firstname.lastname@example.org
Watch every week or got to my home page. Your email provider adds an advertisement to your e-mail that may indicate you have access to the internet. It could be no more than Juno. But if you have internet access go to my home page. http://www.geocities.com/westhollywood/9647 then click on related there I have many files for you on all these subjects, and will add yours with my comments, as it seems like some issues I can cover from a different angle, and also my site has links to gay Christian organizations, so you can begin to get some info built up on the Christian gay community. There I discussed every issue and then some. Later I will get back to you on your specific e-mail which you have some typical responses. Remember you have no experience concerning the gay community and so have no leg to stand in arguments to condemn gays. As for the Bible It absolutely does not condemn gays. Had you known something about the gay community you'd know none of the verses even comes close to relating to gay people. I certainly hope you are not a person that is gonna be like many homophobes and say same sex sex was going to be committed so that means it is talking about gays. It was heterosexuals that intended to gang rape the angels to death and gays don't and never have gang raped anyone to death. But straights have extremely often. Is straight sin? Rapists are not an example of gays. So far the "stereotypes or kneejerk-reaction" seems to be coming right away from you. I haven't gone through your whole e-mail, but I wanted you to know I got it and will reply later. I can't believe how easy it is for you to assume an answer towards ex-gays so readily. If you love truth so much then why is it such a lie that you worship concerning gays? But I will get into more details later. I certainly hope you figure out a few things before you go and put your foot into your mouth. Glancing over what you wrote shows me you know little of what you are talking about and less about me and my walk. It would have been refreshing to hear you ask some questions concerning my walk than just jump in as quite hostile attacking gays. If you want answers I can give you them. I have read so much on both sides of the issue I know probably every whim of your disposition towards gays and every way you come to believe gay is sin. I know it like the back of my hand. I also know tons of facts on both sides as well. You already admit you know nothing. Gen 19 shows you haven't spent one caring moment in concern for people. Why isn't straight sin? Lot's two daughters raped him shortly there after. It so funny not only do homophobes say Sodom was a gay city they never even mention the sex the 3 survivors had.. To you when every man, every boy, and every grandpa went to gang rape and murder the angels this meant every gay on Earth from then on is sin. How many is every male. Was it 10? 100? 1000? 10,000. 100,000? Pretty big rally wouldn't you say? I wonder how they planned to rape the angels? Would they do it in groups of 5 at a time or 10 at a time? By the way where did the boys come from? Did all these gay men went far away to steal boys to turn them gay because the nearby cities were gay too right? Sorry, the Bible and the historical record shows these were beside their evil, ordinary cities of heterosexuals. There could be as many as 10% gay there. Well before I go much further I'll send the short version of my reply to you.
The Stables Ministries Home of Gays For Jesus TV Programs
Voice: 206-338-4297(gays) text: 425-321-5987 correspondence: email@example.com