Gays For Jesus
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In a message dated 97-05-25 22:21:47 EDT, you write:
Subject: Scripture citings
Date: 97-05-25 22:21:47 EDT
Forgive my presumption, but I'm genuinely curious. I was trying to read the discussion you were having regarding the texts in Romans and 1 Cor. on homosexuality. . . but I missed a lot of what you had to say in the fast scroll. I've never heard anyone describe these texts in any but the most damning way, and it doesn't jibe with my experience of God and people. I sense you have read and thought a lot on this, and I'm looking for more input.
Can you share with me your readings (or interpretations) of them? I'd be grateful for any insight you could give.
Rom. Ch 1:18-32
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; 19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: 21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. 24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
The above verses explain a very clear behavior which can be recognized easily. These few verses show people that had become adults already and began making gods out of stone and wood. We read in other places this kind of activity as well. There is no hint that children are involved only that Paul
is referring to grown people who had grown up knowing God's Word and at some point change how they think about God. There are plenty of Bible references that tells us about this and here especially in Rome. Paul was mostly speaking this day or had in other epistles of his at the statue of the unknown god.
Paul said he is going to tell them who this unknown god is that he is GOD. In view of this statue scholars teach us that Paul could see a nearby temple (a fertility cult temple) where historian confirm to us that orgies took place in worship of fertility gods. had Christians today considered all the know
historical and Bible facts of Paul's message that day they would know that Paul was not talking about gays. Almost every preacher I ever heard (quite a few) always have a sermon on 26-27 that has nothing to do with gays or sex at all. What is it? At will we can change what a verse means to suite our sermon
for the day? To go on is these first verses tell us that God after seeing they turned their backs on him turned them gay according to those that think gay is sin. "Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness" is suppose to mean God turned them gay. Why? Because most Christians are taught that gays
are so evil after all when you listen to many Christians uncleanness means gay right? Besides, this has been taught this way for 700 years as an anti-gay Church doctrine. There is much history relating to the end of the 12th century AD when the Church standardized with State in its LAWS. Let me tell you this,
there are 600 million gays and this means you can examine large numbers as many are very public and still many more on known by many. There is no excuse to state gays behave as verse 18-25 says they have behaved. Through out history gays have not behaved this way. There are just like straights some gays that
have belonged to such fertility religions, but tell me because some straights belong to Buddhist cults make every single straight person a Buddhist? No, only those that belong to those cults. Just about all gays do not do any of the details of 18-25. Now 26-27: Natural and nature.
26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: 27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
5446 phusikos (foo-see-kos'); from 5449; "physical", i.e. (by implication) instinctive: KJV-- natural. Compare 5591.
5449 phusis (foo'-sis); from 5453; growth (by germination or expansion), i.e. (by implication) natural production (lineal descent); by extension, a genus or sort; figuratively, native disposition, constitution or usuage: KJV-- ([man-]) kind, nature ([-al]).
Two important structural facts are here. 1st you have a gut instinct then a seed kind of deal. This should strike a chord. You see this means its talking about orientation as it were. If you are straight, which many Christians assume is natural and the only true orientation, then you must apply a few things to this idea of human nature. First we learned that 18-25 explains very clearly adults and no children at all are implemented. Now, not only sentence structure explains, but other supports include and confirm that this means the people of verse 26-27 were utterly completely straight in their sexual orientation before verse 24. So these went against their straight nature and note did not become gay, but had sex as it were like gays might. I said like gays might, history and Paul indicates orgies were the prime focus of Paul's teaching here. Yes, some gays get involved in orgies and so do straights, but in the population of gays very few ever behave this way. 26&27 say your natural orientation is the seed and what insures that you behave in your natural way is your gut instincts. Gays don't learn to be gay and they don't choose it and they aren't conditioned to it and almost none have been rape or molested or seduced by other gay people. Mother never made Johnny gay either. The research is so complete and involves all of history too. By making this verse say gay is sin you have said that every gay in the world was straight up till they were adults then they made gods with their hands to worship forgetting GOD, so God made them gay. To conclude on this context we need to look at 28-32 where God took even a greater step to make these people recognizable by their non-sexual behavior, even though they are supposed to have made gods already, God made visible results to this change to be gay and that is described in detail in 28-32. See below:
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; 29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: 32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them. (KJV)
Now, not only can you look into the lives of 600 million people to see if they were straight until as adults they turned from God to gods, you can also see another non-sexual behavior which is visible that they do all these evil things in verses 28-32. Lets look at the fact in real life and real history concerning gay behavior. Most gays do like straights and seek a life mate. The worst is like straights in often means dating and broken marriages, but over all desire and often fulfillment of meeting that lifetime mate. This ordinary mate pursuit is not sin as such, even though many in the Church count every sexual encounter sin if not in marriage. If this were so then the deciples statement in Matt 19:10
Matt 19:10 His disciples say unto him, If the case of the man be so with his wife, it is not good to marry. (KJV)
would be true to fact as well. And every marriage is in sin by the letter of the LAW. Not because marriage is sin, but that no one can obey the letter of it. When we check out more of the non-sexual behavior of gay we not only find they didn't turn from God, but turned towards him or never left him. They love parents and as for the rest rarely can you find such evil behavior as mentioned above. Instead you find the opposite. Tax wise being 10% of the population they make 19% of the income paying more to run the country, in the care giving fields it is well know they take care of us and if they were forbidden to work the healthcare field would collapse from a recent study here in Washington State. Employers often state their gay employees are the best of their work force. It can go on and on the good beneficial behavior for the world that gays produce. Where can you find evil behavior. 3% gays in sexual deviancy treatment compared to 97% straights. Rom. 1:18-32 proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that it is not talking about gays. God is so good in His word that he explain much details on who he is talking about. Those that use Rom. to condemn gays don't know gays. I am gay I know my life in Jesus Christ and my love of God. I lived 23 years with Jesus as my Savior this to is a remarkable testimony gay Christian have that those that use these verses ignore. I have touch very little here on Rom. 1:26-27 there is much history and lots of study that shows you gay is not sin. one last note. In Paul's day there were 9 Greek words to describes gays as we know them today. Paul invented a word that 300 years later someone used it to relate to gays for the first time.
1 Cor 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, (KJV)
4205 pornos (por'-nos); from pernemi (to sell; akin to the base of 4097); a (male) prostitute (as venal), i.e. (by analogy) a debauchee (libertine): KJV-- fornicator, whoremonger.
3120 malakos (mal-ak-os'); of uncertain affinity; soft, i.e. fine (clothing); figuratively, a catamite: KJV-- effeminate, soft.
733 arsenokoites (ar-sen-ok-oy'-tace); from 730 and 2845; a sodomite: KJV-- abuser of (that defileself) with mankind.
^i^ If you get detailed definitions on fornication and drum out all the peticulars of sexual immorality which covers considerably the closest you get to gays is 4205 (also in Tim 1:10) and that is that of a prostitute. Even the best Greeks can't tell you this is a gay person that is a prostitute or a straight male selling his body to women, which was not uncommon back then either. straight prostitutes never made straight sin. So why should a gay prostitute make all gays sin? 3120's catamite is simple in Jesus day at Corinth was a very expensive call boy or young man who some of the wealthy men would buy to be seen with as like lovers. Many say catamites are the fem and sodomite are the butch, but that has nothing to do with the Bible. Catamites are male prostitutes where as time went on became to also mean pederasts, which makes no since because catamite are the younger not the older, but the theory is the catamites were sodomites' victims. This is not Bible. KJV "effeminate" actually meant "weak and spineless" in King James' day. Sodomite actually means "temple prostitute" as clearly defined in the Hebrew usuage:
6945 qadesh (kaw-dashe'); from 6942; a (quasi) sacred person, i.e. (technically) a (male) devotee (by prostitution) to licentious idolatry: KJV-- sodomite, unclean.
This can be further proven in the Bible in five OT places with the 2 NT verses. Then studying history you get tons of detailed behavior of sodomites. Usually they cut off their penis in a frenzied temple service later dressed a women as their clients where male member(who were straight) of the temple. This was religion to them in fertility cult. Lev20 mentions Molech a fertility god of Canaan. There are many resources I have studied which goes into the Ashtaroth.
Judg 2:13 And they forsook the LORD, and served Baal and Ashtaroth. (KJV)
^i^ there were many poles in the land which many believe were male genitalia and many books goes into details of the historical records of this. Sodomite does not mean gay. Now we go into Christian history on this verse. A clergy convention in 1850 had as one of it discussions 1 Cor 6:9. As for sometime this verse was taught, where today the Church says means homosexual, (arsenokoites) meant masterbaters would not inherit the kingdom. At this convention that would change the Church wide teaching on this verse the discussion brought out a universal agreement that Heaven would be empty if they really believed this verse meant what was being taught. Under much debate they concluded they must agree on another scapegoat for who won't inherit the kingdom here. It was already taught those not emphasized much that gay was sin. They figure in the discussions most wouldn't mind gays not entering God's Kingdom and so agreed to from then on teach it as gays won't inherit the Kingdom. This became completed in 1950 when it was for the first time entered into the Bible by taking out the original two Greek words malakos and arsenokoites and insert a word that never in any form was in the Bible before. I don't have that version in my computer so the NIV which came out in the 80s I believe gives you an idea. Some other new version also put in this word the original came out in 1950 with just the word homosexual, this NIV uses sexually immoral then uses a description of one kind of sexual immorality which doesn't makes since. Fornication has all sexual immorality in it so why take one kind out to emphasis?
1 Cor 6:9 Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders (NIV)
These are just some things to consider when using the Bible to condemn gays. Each verse has a history of how it came to be used to condemn gays and all after the Church standardized with the State where earlier the Church condemned those that condemned gays, but by the 14th century most countries had laws against gays while before no country had laws against gays. WHY? And why did a horrible plague lasting a very long time happen there around the 14th century? Who sinned? Protestants at first did not condemn gays and Christian gays worshipped with them until they also adopted the Catholic anti-gay doctrine of the end of the 12th century. So what I am telling you is when people feel need to condemn hundreds of millions of people they should at least know what they are talking about. And that those they condemn may have a testimony in Christ Jesus. Questions one should ask ones self should include.
Luke 12:10 And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Ghost it shall not be forgiven. (KJV)
Anyone that says he is a Christian care must be given no matter how much you believe he can't be. Jesus died for all and accepts all that come to him. There is no conditions set by Jesus except to believe in him. God write his laws on tablets of flesh.
Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. (KJV)
The Church very often wants to command the letter of the Law heaping heavy weights on the innocent. Judging another's sin demands judgement back on your own sins. How can your sins be forgiven if you can't help yourself from judging others. If a gay persons says he is a Christian and someone says because you are gay you can not be a Christian, that's calling Jesus a liar and blasphemy against Jesus' work on the Cross. BUT if a gay person says he is filled with the Holy Spirit (baptized in the Holy Spirit) and someone says not so that its a demon tongue you speak. Then if indeed it is the Holy Spirit that blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. Very few consider this dangerous ground, but the warning is clearly given.
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