Gays For Jesus
Article Date: Sunday, December 29, 1997
Comments in reply to
Joshua5347 verses against gays
Subj: RE:About the romans letter..
Date: 97-12-29 23:59:26 EST
--Then God said "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground. ( vs.27 ) So God created man in his own image in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.
--God blessed them and said to them, "Be fruitfull and "INCREASE IN NUMBER" fill the earth and subdue it. ( Male & Female )
( Question )
1. How do two men increase in number compared to how God planned it from the begining?
2. How do they fill the earth? ( they can't ), therefore God does not accept it because it goes against his plan to fill the earth.
^i^ The last time I looked out the window I saw 6 billion people out there. 10% gay seems to not effect God's plan. Today straights are doing everything in there power to reduce population. China's program is one child per family, the USA old average is 2.5. Now, lets go into the New World Order straight people. There plan developed in 1974 "Gateway 2000" calls for a population reduction of 1 billion. Sure this last group is bringing antichrist's kingdom in, but the point is straights are purposely reducing the population. Families by taking the pill. Now you are quick to assume the Garden story condemns gays, most of your questions I have gone into detail on in my web site so I'll just give you a button to point and click for each web link. Click button looks like this ® | for your Garden questions answer just point and click on the above button.
--The Lord God said, "It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make a helper suitable for him.
--He made a woman for man, not a man for man.
--Then the Lord God made a woman from the rib he had taken out of the man, and he braught her to the man, The man said, "This is now bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh; she shall be called woman, for she was taken out of man. For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and will be united to his wife, and they will become one flesh.
^i^ Again for more details on the Garden click above. Hopefully one day I will have the Hebrew with the most accurate meaning to paste in, but for now I will paste in the common usage.
6763 tsela` (tsay-law'); or (feminine) tsal` ah (tsal-aw'); from 6760; a rib (as curved), literally (of the body) or figuratively (of a door, i.e. leaf); hence, a side, literally (of a person) or figuratively (of an object or the sky, i.e. quarter); architecturally, a (especially floor or ceiling) timber or plank (single or collective, i.e. a flooring): KJV-- beam, board, chamber, corner, leaf, plank, rib, side (chamber).
^i^ I heard and very creditable Hebrew word teacher say that this rib in the most correct translation over to English would be a cell from that rib. Now if this is true, which of course it is, God we know created man and today we know very well that means genes, etc. So Adam had everything to make every kind of human we know today in his genes. Men have x and ys and which ever makes it you have a male or female. God personally designed the first such matching up of genes. You can deny what ever you like, but that won't undo the fact that took place which today we can document. God did not wish Eve into existence. He made her from Adam. He could have made her blond or brunette, short or tall, curly or straight hair, etc. But the first one He made had to be woman period. The rest could be either, but God set up a random calculator which was set to percentage factors. You can also deny this, but we have proved this a long time ago and used this many times to create a choiced animal. Jacob maybe was the first to use gene pooling.
40 Jacob set apart the young of the flock by themselves, but made the rest face the streaked and dark-colored animals that belonged to Laban. Thus he made separate flocks for himself and did not put them with Laban's animals. 41 Whenever the stronger females were in heat, Jacob would place the branches in the troughs in front of the animals so they would mate near the branches, 42 but if the animals were weak, he would not place them there. So the weak animals went to Laban and the strong ones to Jacob. (NIV)
^i^ When Adam and Eve were kick out of the Garden many things changed. Thorns and thistles grew, woman would have pain in childbirth and the man would have a desire put into to him to control and dominate women. These curses still are working. The human body underwent a shock leaving the Garden. Read the Forgotten Books of Eden. Very remarkable. It fills in many blank missing pieces and for centuries were used as the only Bible many Christians had. You can't toss them away they are apart of centuries of Christian life. Some value is there. That first 1000 years were a changing period for Earth from the Garden state. Something happened there. The Days of Noah happened which are to happen again in the Last Days. What are the Days of Noah? That is where Cain probably made a famous city (Atlantis) according to Masons who trace the beginnings to the Flood.
Gen 4:12 When thou tillest the ground, it shall not henceforth yield unto thee her strength; a fugitive and a vagabond shalt thou be in the earth. (KJV)
^i^ Studying Cain you will find he became an inventor, because he could not grow things. What do you suppose would happen if everyone lived 900 plus years? I can't tell for sure, but though as evil as the goal of Masons are their account of the FLOOD of the Bible destroyed Atlantis and in is New Atlantis they plan to re-birth in the USA which was written of a 1000 years ago and Sir Francis Bacon wrote a detailed blueprint 300 years before the USA to re-birth Atlantis (the Days of Noah) in the new land America. This plan is for general practical purpose a success and complete and even the details of announcing a man whom 200 world leaders, the Vatican, and leaders of the Protestant Church have already met with, to be world leader. This is no fantasy, it happened and now they are waiting for a natural disaster, war, stack market crash, or some other accidental or planned disaster to take place. Hal Lindsey says he nearly guarantees two wars will happen in 1998. One in Korea, the other in the middle east, each killing over 100,000 people. Japan has been warned by highest level leaders of this. Masons have a remarkable history. It is as detailed to take over the world as the Bible details it to happen and the history it give us concerning God and Jesus Christ. Masons act directly in connection with Lucifer as unfallen and GOD as the dark one.
----------Now we have seen what God's plan was from the beginning for men and woman, let's see what he say's about obeying what he say's and how he feels about disobeying him and men lying with other men.
^i^ Right off you are in error, but lets go on....
--Whoever has my Commands ( bible ) and obey's them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him.
--Jesus replied, "If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and will come to him and make our home with him. He who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.
--and once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him.
--They claim to know God but by their actions they deny him. They are detestable, disobedient and unfit for anything good.
^i^ So we you are a very sick individual for you are telling me you have already judge in your heart the fate of all gays. It is ridiculous for me to go on, but for the sake of all those that read this on my web page I will go on. You are in complete disregard to facts, Bible and otherwise. For you have assigned disobedience to 600 million people with so much as caring enough to see if you have your fact right. You are not asking me for help on understanding God's word concerning gays, you have already sentence gays to death and are a murdered of 600 million people. You need to repent and there is little time left. Your little cute follow-up e-mail to see if I have gotten you mail and what did I think of it, then when you saw me in chat you also acted so innocent as though you are so good, yet as I see you had a dagger in your hand behind your back. Here every "they" you mean "gay". The Bible means Lev. 26 all of it. We as a CHURCH today about to go into 2000 are now in the 4th level of disobeying God. Why do you think God told us through Dan. that there will be 1260 days to break the power of His people? Please read all of Lev 26 and get real close to the 4th level at verse 28;
Lev 26:28 Then I will walk contrary unto you also in fury; and I, even I, will chastise you seven times for your sins. (KJV)
Dan 12:7 The man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, lifted his right hand and his left hand toward heaven, and I heard him swear by him who lives forever, saying, "It will be for a time, times and half a time. When the power of the holy people has been finally broken, all these things will be completed." (NIV)
^i^ Here Dan says what Rev 11 says.
Lev 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth. (KJV)
^i^ I go into detail why the Church will go thru these 1260 on my web site through out my pages as with the details on why you are so wrong about gays. You have not spent one day with me let alone all my life and the 24 years I have been saved. How can you give account of my life and talk about disobedience without spending any times with gay Christians. You have completely assumed gay is sin based on a conditioning of a 700 year old Church anti-gay doctrine. I have studied this doctrine upside down and backwards and right side up, the Church doctrine is wrong. Even now the Student Reference Library has this to say concerning this 700 year old doctrine.
Religion has been of central importance in shaping this climate. Until the thirteenth century, the Christian tradition was ambiguous in its attitude towardhomosexuality. But with the recodification of canon law under the influence of Thomas Aquinas, new attitudes set in. Homosexual behavior was thereafter excoriated as a heinous sin. The English carried these beliefs to North America, and the power of religion in early America guaranteed that such beliefs would shape colonial attitudes.
^i^ You should at least have studied some facts before you assumed gay is sin.
++++++Now let's see what God feels about Men have sexual relations with other men, it doesn't matter how sincere you are in your relationship with other men, it is still a sin to God and it is still wrong according to his plan as we saw in Genesis and in the following scripture's.
^i^ You are about to present the anti-gay doctrine which I sum up below:
The Anti-gay Church 700 year old Doctrine in a nut shell!
Gen 19:4-5 gang rape, murder, victims would have been angels
Judg 19:22 rarely used gang rape, murder, but victim was opposite sex.
Deut 23:17 don't be a temple prostitute
IKing 14:24 rarely used temple prostitute
IKing 15:12 rarely used temple prostitute
IKing 22:46 rarely used temple prostitute
II Ki 23:7 rarely used temple prostitute
Lev 18:22 acts done in worshipping other gods, not comparing loving, caring , long term relationships, woman is a likely adulteress
Lev 20:13 acts done in worshipping other gods, not comparing loving, caring , long term relationships, woman is a likely adulteress
Rom 1:27-28 Should be 18-32. adults turned from God, God changed them, results visible evil behavior
1 Cor 6:9 call boy and temple prostitute, 1950 original Greek removed, meant masturbation before 1850
1 Tim 1:10 temple prostitute
Jude 1:7 general sexual immorally of Sodom and Gomorrah with no hint of sexual orientation
>>Leviticus 20:13 "Punishment for sins"
--"If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.
( Question )
1. How much more clear does God have to be here? ( notice what the title of the chapter say's "Punishment for sins" ( emphasis added on sins ). It is considered a sin to God.
--"Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is "Detestable"
^i^ Yes, this out of context and not thought through very is difficult for most people. But try studying a few years gathering all that facts about this chapter. You will find there is a lot to learn. In summary your 2 words woman &Detestable:
802 'ishshah (ish-shaw'); feminine of 376 or 582; irregular plural, nashiym (naw-sheem'); a woman (used in the same wide sense as 582): KJV-- [adulter] ess, each, every, female, X many, + none, one, + together, wife, woman. Often unexpressed in English.
8441 tow` ebah (to-ay-baw'); or to` ebah (to-ay-baw'); feminine active participle of 8581; properly, something disgusting (morally), i.e. (as noun) an abhorrence; especially idolatry or (concretely) an idol: KJV-- abominable (custom, thing), abomination.
^i^ Note woman when translated to English the exact kind is Often unexpressed in English. Just look, is it a coincidence that [adulter] ess is at the beginning of 582? As you use Bible on itself you find this woman was already an immoral woman and not the wife possibility. Now at the end we have especially idolatry or (concretely) an idol, WHY? You seem to love " Detestable", but that is not what the HEBREW means. It is Detestable because the act is done worshipping Mollech a fertility god. Sorry to break your bubble, but gays just aren't having sex in a practice of worship to any fertility god. But at the time of:
Lev 18:3 After the doings of the land of Egypt, wherein ye dwelt, shall ye not do: and after the doings of the land of Canaan, whither I bring you, shall ye not do: neither shall ye walk in their ordinances. (KJV)
Lev 20:4 And if the people of the land do any ways hide their eyes from the man, when he giveth of his seed unto Molech, and kill him not: (KJV)
^i^ There were "sodomites":
6945 qadesh (kaw-dashe'); from 6942; a (quasi) sacred person, i.e. (technically) a (male) devotee (by prostitution) to licentious idolatry: KJV-- sodomite, unclean.
^i^ And these men did worship fertility gods and goddesses. More info click on button
>>1 Corinthians 6:9-11
--Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the Kingdom of God? Do not be decieved: Neither the sexualy immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers, nor male prostitutes, nor homosexual offenders.
^i^ This is the most stupid verse a Christian can use to try to say gay is sin, because there is so much information on its history. Starting from 1950 2 GREEK words were removed and another word not for in the original Bible language. Meaning it was not used in the Bible in any form of it's possible actual Greek or Hebrew words used during the day it was first written onto paper and later used in the Bible when it was first put together. Paul could have used a Greek word for gays because there are at least 9 of them in that day. In 1950 Paul's words were removed and homosexual was entered. (also in 1 Tim 1:10). In 1850 a national clergy convention was held. At one point they discussed 1 Cor 6:9 concerningarsenokoites & malakos
3120 malakos (mal-ak-os'); of uncertain affinity; soft, i.e. fine (clothing); figuratively, a catamite: KJV-- effeminate, soft.
733 arsenokoites (ar-sen-ok-oy'-tace); from 730 and 2845; a sodomite: KJV-- abuser of (that defileself) with mankind.
^i^ As it was up to then it was taught for quite some time as masturbaters won't inherit. Why do you think that in some circles it is still said doing that will send you to hell? It had to have a history. Well these clergy got smart and said all in agreement that if this is taught then Heaven would be empty at the Last Day. So what could they do??? They all decided that they could find a replacement act to condemn here. They said since it was generally accepted the gays are perverted and a sin (remember the 700 year old doctrine was well presented in the USA) so they adopted gays won't inherit. Now you know why today you gave me this verse. Had they not discussed this then you would not have given me this verse because it wasn't taught as gay was sin. Now in 1611 it was taught the weak and spineless would not inherit (by the way King James was a very well documented drag queen and reading the introduction to the Bible the King was adamant that the most accurate possible translation be made. It is also taught that malakos was the boy and arsenokoites in a pedophile thing. It is also taught that malakos was the woman's roll and arsenokoites the man's roll taken by men. Of course the Greek says malakos is fine clothing (ok we can figure out that's not litteral) or catamite which is the fact. Webster's Collegiate's Dictionary says the pedophile thing. What does Corinthian times say? After all this is where it all took place so Paul could relate to it here. History says wealthy men in high class loved to be seen with young men or boys as lovers (call boys). These were long term and paid well to escort them around. This form of prostitution is being condemned by Paul. That is the historical fact and the Bible Greek meaning as catamite is the name for what today we would call expensive call boys or young men.Arsenokoites means " . . . . . . . . . . . a sodomite:" What does " : " mean to you?
co·lon (ko¹len) noun
1. a. A punctuation mark (:) used after a word introducing a quotation, an explanation, an example, or a series and often after the salutation of a business letter. b. The sign (:) used between numbers or groups of numbers in expressions of time (2:30 A.M.) and ratios (1:2).
2. plural co·la (-le). A section of a metrical period in quantitative verse, consisting of two to six feet and in Latin verse having one principal accent.
part of a verse, from Greek kolon,
limb, member, metrical unit.]
The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Third Edition copyright © 1992 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Electronic version licensed from INSO Corporation; further reproduction and distribution restricted in accordance with the Copyright Law of the United States. All rights reserved.
^i^ Hmm?? The way I read it means every thing that comes after a colon directly relates to what is before the colon, right? What comes before the colon?
6945 qadesh (kaw-dashe'); from 6942; a (quasi) sacred person, i.e. (technically) a (male) devotee (by prostitution) to licentious idolatry: KJV-- sodomite, unclean.
^i^ How do you makearsenokoites mean homosexual? If it means homosexual then all 600 million gays today are sacred (male) persons ) devotee (by prostitution) to licentious idolatry. And what is idolatry?
1495 eidololatreia (i-do-lol-at-ri'-ah); from 1497 and 2999; image-worship (literally or figuratively): KJV-- idolatry.
8655 teraphiym (ter-aw-feme'); plural from 7495; a healer; Teraphim (singular or plural) a family idol: KJV-- idols (-atry), images, teraphim.
^i^ What does the Bible say about733 arsenokoites (ar-sen-ok-oy'-tace); from 730 and 2845; a sodomite:?
Deut 23:17 There shall be no whore of the daughters of Israel, nor a sodomite of the sons of Israel. (KJV)
IKing 14:24 And there were also sodomites in the land: and they did according to all the abominations of the nations which the LORD cast out before the children of Israel. (KJV)
IKing 15:12 And he took away the sodomites out of the land, and removed all the idols that his fathers had made. (KJV)
IKing 22:46 And the remnant of the sodomites, which remained in the days of his father Asa, he took out of the land. (KJV)
II Ki 23:7 And he brake down the houses of the sodomites, that were by the house of the LORD, where the women wove hangings for the grove. (KJV)
^i^ Well I tried to give you some clues to study. The more I studied the more I am amazed how anyone could ever have though 1 Cor 6:9 condemned gays. But for more info click here
--VS.11 Notice what he say's here "And that is what some of you were" there obviously had been some in the Church here in Corinth that had a homosexual past and Paul was telling them you "Were" like this so stop continueing in this, you were washed ( baptism ) and forgiven of these sins, as long as it was the right baptism.
-- He continues on saying you were justified and sanctified, they obviously saw the need to repent of this sin, inorder to be right with God, you can only see that by the scripture's in Leviticus.
^i^ Well as you read I sowed you your flaw on interpreting the Bible. You just plain don't study. God says:
2 Tim 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. (KJV)
^i^ Many tell me I twist scripture to justify gay is not sin, but when I get stuff from them like yourself, where is the study? Are you one of the weirdoes that thinks they say something smart when they says if its in the Bible that it is good enough for me and usually adds there is no need to question the Word by looking up Hebrew or Greek or Historical usage let alone any other written documentation in history. Now your verse about some of you were? Are you implying becoming ex-gay? And so you think since the Bible says it, it is then fact? Please click herethen scroll down to the many comments on the ex-gay leader's testimonies. I have read probably 50 to 60 ex-gay leader's testimonies. These are all bisexuals, one president of the biggest Exodus International never had gay sex, but did have straight sex and married quickly. He says this makes him a good example. Example of what? They all had very "victim set" lives starting at their earliest recall of around 3 to 5 years old. They always though it sin and many grew up in Catholic schools. Most were alcoholics and did drugs. Most had sex with girls and women. One was a male prostitute, many thought they were girls and some were very good women impersonators. A key to their lives is everything about themselves were bad. Yet, by some of their testimonies some good things and happy times occurred when they so called left the faith just to be gay and it seemed to me God was then able to bless their lives until they thought back to their misery and went directly to homophobic pastors for help. None sought any sort of Bible study on the issue and none went to gay support or gay churches. All were directed to ex-gay ministries where without any formal counseling training or Bible school in extremely short order became leaders in the ex-gay ministries. They foolowups on client that went through their ministries lasted a very short time, though they considered it long enough. Many other groups did followups on these ex-gay clients and to the tune of 100% was the failure rate. The founders of Exodus International became lover and now preach that they were wrong and the horrible things these ministries do to people for the sake of change. There ex-gay ministry had a 100% failure rate too. Sylvia Pentington an Assemblies of God straight women wrote several book showing gay is not sin and one of them documented her time working to change gays to straight in SF Teen Challenge. She found the lies becoming unbearable about gays. She found that the Bible did not condemn gays as taught and finally she left that ministry. God dealt with her to go back and when she did a year later every ex-gay there (100) were gone back to who they were (gay). She knew them personally and looked every last one of them up. She found them all and found most were much better Christians for it, some were to badly hurt from the ordeal others turned away from God because He wasn't changing them. She begin what became a 25 year study of gays and the Bible. I had her on my TV program 3 times and once she went to an Assemblies of God that the pastor was bad mouthing me because being on TV each week I am known here. She stood up immediately and introduced herself saying she knew me personally and the pastor was simply not telling the truth about the letter I had wrote him. I still had the original and indeed that pastor did lie about me. EX-GAYS? As she titles one of her books "there are none". Your state on "--VS.11 Notice what he say's here "And that is what some of you were" is out of place!
( Question )
1. If Homosexual relationships are excepted by God, why is their scripture against it not for it?, and the only guidelines and advice that is given for any relationship between Gods creation is only for a marriage? between a man and a woman?.
It is you and people like you that hold to this lies about wedlock. The Church drove gays away first in the Catholic church at the end of the 12th century. They placed gays on their most hated list which already contained 2 groups. The Jews and barbarians. Last night I talked at length with a Jew in a Jewish chat room online. He told me about the 12th century when the Church began treating them badly and he also told me about how Hitler killed gays along with Jews. He remembered what happened and saw gays being divided out to be gassed with them. By the way an interesting note I read from a credible source. In WWII there was a cyanide gas salesman that sole to the Germans. He of course now is the POPE who also wears a secret society emblem next to his cross. This is of course ultimately the Masons. You are saying the Bible says gay is sin, I am showing it does not say that at all which plenty of information that you yourself can find out. Your man and woman thing is a cop out to present gays as fornicators as a last result to get them to hell which is your love. The fact is many straight pastors are marrying gays behind closed doors against their higher archy policy. Beside all the gay churches which in spite of your wish are ver Christian. There are several major denominations that accept gay marriages through their gay outreaches such as, Integrity and Dignity. Most denominations there are gay groups meeting, but still not accepted. Because the Church outlawed gay marriage 700 years ago and the Protestants adopted the doctrine by the 14th century does not make your wish of your marriage condemnation of gays real. Its too bad you can't take time to see gay couples that are Christians and even those that have lovers that aren't Christian. You would find God is as much a part of their lives as their counter parts in the straight community. If you are yoked with an unbeliever he is covered and if he wishes to leave the Christian is free to remarry. I can tell you about how this works in detail. God is so good. The Bible principles work just as well with gay Christian couples as with married straight Christians. Just about every Straight Christian disobeys God concerning Marriage.
5 And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh? 6 Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder. (KJV)
^i^ The OT say the same. God gave a command that there is only one reason to leave mother and father and that is to marry. (note; legal and Church marriage was basically unknown and especially for the common folk. They just shacked up and the State and Church accepted they as marriage for most of history. The rich and famous had Church celebrations). The Bible is a huge book and experts can tell you the (even God) adheres to the audiences (readers, hearers). If you are talking to thousands and most were baseball fans in a baseball stadium enjoying the game, you would address them with comment pertaining to the sport of baseball, you would not talk like you would if you were at an darning club would you. If you went to a country dance club would you hear JAZZ? Well God is talking to 6 billion people only 10% are gay, you can divide it further into races and many many subgroups. Today some Bible say accept Jesus into your throats. Some country have no word for anchor. So is it wrong to translate it to the vernacular (
28 times lover is used in this BOOK
^i^ Most list 1730 two are 157, but try reading it and see if they are not talking about what we today think a lover is. I bet you don't love your wife as much as Solomon tell this story do you?
157 'ahab (aw-hab'); or 'aheb (aw-habe'); a primitive root; to have affection for (sexually or otherwise): KJV-- (be-) love (-d, -ly, -r), like, friend.
1730 dowd (dode); or (shortened) dod (dode); from an unused root meaning properly, to boil, i.e. (figuratively) to love; by implication, a lovetoken, lover, friend; specifically an uncle: KJV-- (well-) beloved, father's brother, love, uncle.
^i^ You can try to make God small and not talking to everyone, but the people hear HIM in spite of your wish that HE is speaking narrowly only in areas that you accept. His Apostles even thought this:
Matt 19:10 His disciples say unto him, If the case of the man be so with his wife, it is not good to marry. (KJV)
^i^ God called Eve by the name of Adam (sorry this is not Eve Adam like Paul Crouch you don't call Jan, Jan Paul do you):
Gen 5:2 Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created. (KJV)
^i^ This is just showing you that taking the word at a verse literally may prove God calls women by a man's name. Or we can prove gays will be in the Rapture by using one verse so you should by this proof text stop condemning gays because God Raptures gays. Here is a verse where a gay couple are in bed together, one is a Christian and one is not:
Luke 17:34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left. (KJV)
^i^ Try to get out of this picture. See now you have to really study to find if in Jesus day men really slept in the same bed because there was just no room for separate beds or if 2 men slept together they were gay. Tell me what method would you used to know what this verse means, because it actually is a verse that can stand alone as the verses here are describing different types of separate conditions. Did God add this verse to make you think? David had an interesting thing:
1 Sam 18:1 And it came to pass, when he had made an end of speaking unto Saul, that the soul of Jonathan was knit with the soul of David, and Jonathan loved him as his own soul. (KJV)
1 Sam 18:3 Then Jonathan and David made a covenant, because he loved him as his own soul. (KJV)
1 Sam 18:4 And Jonathan stripped himself of the robe that was upon him, and gave it to David, and his garments, even to his sword, and to his bow, and to his girdle. (KJV)
^i^ If you were to study, which very few care to look into, this thing Jonathon did by giving David these things you would find this is just not done and it is a very intimate. This is just not done for very good friends or really anyone unless there is more to it. Experts get into the details but it point to a relationship. Saul began to hate David and Jonathon found out the degree and met David for the last time below.
1 Sam 20:41 And as soon as the lad was gone, David arose out of a place toward the south, and fell on his face to the ground, and bowed himself three times: and they kissed one another, and wept one with another, until David exceeded. (KJV)
^i^ I guess you have to be gay to see it. The first time I read it and I never read the Bible before at that time or any other help or study from any source. I had just barely gotten into church as a baby Christian. It just leaped off the pages that this was a sexual love at first sight kind of thing. Meaning for straights when they meet the opposite sex and something happens which they call love at first sight. This happens with gays too. Like straight most of the time you meet someone that seems nice enough that they could be marrying potential. Now what did Jonathon's father think of this. As later, because at the time I just thought I had no right assuming David was gay and besides he married and movies and such always depicts him with women. Well, study makes a lot of fact come out. David's first 2 marriages was in Hebrew duty to dead husbands. Love was not why he married. Other marriages was likewise kind of duty to please Saul. Later as King something was missing in David's life and he committed adultery and had the husband sent to the front lines to be killed costing David's baby boy from her to die and he got a good rebuking from Samuel. David was very lonely, he sang many songs which related to missing Jonathon which he remained faith to. He all adopted the only living son of Jonathon. Now history shows gays often married even some very famous ones who had kids. Though today they are known as straight with the proof they had sons, the historical facts shows it took moments to make a baby while the rest of the time was spent with their gay lovers. One joking way of putting it was many gays had wives as a retirement plan as there was no social security in those days. Their kids took care of them in old age and their wives nursed them. So was there more evidense to at least wonder if David was gay?
1 Sam 20:30 Then Saul's anger was kindled against Jonathan, and he said unto him, Thou son of the perverse rebellious woman, do not I know that thou hast chosen the son of Jesse to thine own confusion, and unto the confusion of thy mother's nakedness? (KJV)
^i^ Now straight scholars themselves tell us that when nakedness is used it refers to actual sexual behavior. Saul was homophobic. It ancient days there were periods where gays were treated badly and times when it just did matter and care cared it was not a problem and didn't effect anyone one way or the other. Saul cared and said so in a modern homophobe display of rage. Because Saul hated it did that mean God hated it? It seem that David was a man after God's own heart. Son of a perverse woman. This is significant statement. Saul is very much meaning he knows their is sexual behavior going on. It is important to note that Saul calls his wife a perverse woman and saying to Jonathon he has chosen the son of Jesse. These are all kinds of statement that is generated in those days to say what today would be a father of a gay son becoming enraged after learning of his son's gayness. I don't expect you can accept this and so what. I am telling you some things that should make you think and little bet longer on the WORD that you interpret to mean it condemns gays. This is not all there is a lesbian story which I would have never thought to be except that a lesbian saw it as a lesbian love affair and so with her expert knowledge of the Word and the Hebrew application and customs knew that this could never be a normal kind of woman to woman friendship. She expertly tells the unusualness which indicates it very well could be a lesbian relationship. These two stories are about probably the most famous man and woman in the Bible. Though other may be more important. David had been dead a long time by Ez 34. When Gods says David is a prince to a certain group of people. I again don't expect your acceptance on what I am saying, but it was a revelation to me in quite a dramatic way as that chapter had been given to me by God I had no understanding of it for 11 years as to why God kept bring it to me ( a million times a million ways) then after my first confrontation with a pastors where I had to tell him I was gay God open up the meaning. Part of it was David is the Prince to gays. My own thing so I don't care who believes it I just tell it. So these few areas should be at least something to wonder about, but is there more precise positive mention of gays and maybe if possible does Jesus with his own mouth tells us in the Bible the "GAY IS NOT SIN"?
11 But he said unto them, All men cannot receive this saying, save they to whom it is given. 12 For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother's womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it. (KJV)
^i^ Well this does not sound like gay is not sin, but Jesus did state this. It would be in red in a red letter edition of the Bible. Look in verse 11 it says something unusual here. It says All men can not receive this saying???? What does that mean? Does that mean you know what it means? Does it mean the Church as a whole knows what it means? But if so then did Jesus lie? He himself said something to the fact that most people just can't get it. That means if you think it means men with out ding dongs then you are wrong. But eunuchs really are menus ding dongs aren't they, but then if so Jesus lied because he said all men can't receive it except some who it is given. Who is it given to? Pastors that condemn gays? Is it given to the Assemblies of God? The Catholics? WHO? YOU? Well. I have run acros some strange statements from gays that really are not very much up on knowledge and even some that knows the word, but certainly not historic documents and the like, but they say without any connection to each other except they told me one completely separate and without knowledge of the other that outright the Jesus told them eunuchs were gays. I thought OH HO HUM... Because though a pleasant wish and a possible unprovable neat Word from God for gays that he loves us and its not sin. However, God often leads me to facts and documentation and I read a Yale Historian Professor book showing a ancient book that says most people believe eunuch were gay in and around Jesus day. I have the professor's book with the one line reference but hardly much more than a vague lead to a conclusive fact of history which if true would mean Jesus was well aware that the people and all the Apostles knew if he used the word eunuch they would think of gays. Also in the Forgotten Books of Enden It includes the Lost Books of the Bible. Here it gives the credentials these books were also used for centuries by the Church as the only access to the Word of God which of course the Church left out because of reasons like they weren't poetic enough and may add a little confusion in some areas. Some areas its says can be questionable, but all are ancient and well translated. In one book it explains Jesus spent time with a group of people known to have many gays hanging out with them because they were more accepting than most. Jesus never condemned them, but seemed to like hanging out with this group of people. ( please don't assume this is gays saying Jesus is gay, Jesus is creator, gay or straight is not a term to be used on him. This argument is mute because tell me straight person do you tell Jesus to wait outside when you go in to have sex with your wife. Jesus is in you and in your wife and there every second of your love making. He gay or straight?) Well this is still vague isn't it. Just hopeful gay thinking huh? Is there concret proof that most people of Jesus day though eunuch were all gay or at least most were gay? We know the Bible and says they were very good people for running the household of the leaders including their harems. If straight eunuch had charge of harems they could still rape the women, of course no fear of babies. But gays, what a great harem babies sitter. By the way what about the eunuch in the Red City, remember that movie. They all held up the jars with their ding dong showing they were eunuchs. Some eunuch were quite sexual with the emperor right? I have lots of Chinese friends and have verification of what the movie presented was quite accurate. Well my word against the Church huh? But the Chinese thing is provable. But they were Buddhist so going to hell anyway right? Again if Jesus knew the people though eunuchs were gay why would he say such remarkably good things about eunuch who also many of the day though were bad people, just like you do about gays. Well I found that book online. Here is an excerpt from it:
The Kama Sutra: Part II Chapter 9
OF THE AUPARISHTAKA OR MOUTH CONGRESS
THERE are two kinds of eunuchs, those that are disguised as males, and those that are disguised as females. Eunuchs disguised as females imitate their dress, speech, gestures, tenderness, timidity, simplicity, softness and bashfulness. The acts that are done on the jaghana or middle parts of women, are done in the mouths of these eunuchs, and this is called Auparishtaka. These eunuchs derive their imaginable pleasure, and their livelihood from this kind of congress, and they lead the life of courtesans. So much concerning eunuchs disguised as females.
Eunuchs disguised as males keep their desires secret, and when they wish to do anything they lead the life of shampooers. Under the pretence of shampooing, a eunuch of this kind embraces and draws towards himself the thighs of the man whom he is shampooing, and after this he touches the joints of his thighs and his jaghana, or central portions of his body. Then, if he finds the lingam of the man erect, he presses it with his hands and chaffs him for getting into that state. If after this, and after knowing his intention, the man does not tell the eunuch to proceed, then the latter does it of his own accord and begins the congress. If however he is ordered by the man to do it, then he disputes with him, and only consents at last with difficulty.
The following eight things are then done by the eunuch one after the other:
^i^ I foot notes say that it is dated around Jesus day but also iludes to practises of a much older date. I didn't include much more because is just describing sex and the point to be made is what people thought in those days about eunuchs. Now the entire book details straight sex mostly. I guess sort of a Doctor Ruth's Book of the day. Funny today a sterotype of gays is hairdressers. Of course as then and now most gays are just simply invisible to the general population. Only the very noticable are seen which hardly reflect the gay community at all. I was amazed to see that this book may not be so rare after all and is passed around in straight circles. If it is the anser to the gay question is right infront of their faces. Have you watch the newer version of Scrooge? I have seen it some time ago, but have not cared to watch it for a while as it is re-runned. I had nothing else to watch one night and it was a t an interesting scene so I started watching it. Then I got interested and kept watching. To my utter surprize I saw something I never remebered in that movie. I do remember the book giving, but the title meant nothing. This time I saw the title and was shocked. It was "The Kama Sutra". Apparently it is a gift giving kind of book to newly weds (my guess). However, that book is apparently easily available. It has in it facts about how eunuchs were though of in the past. If gays are classed in the eunuch group and Jesus covered them all then gay is not sin, period right out of Jesus mouth and right after the Apostles said "it's better not to marry". It matters to study especially when you love to condemn 600 million to hell without hope in God.
>>1 Corinthians 5:12-13
--What buisness is it of mine to judge those outside the Church? Are you not to judge those inside? God will judge those outside. "Expel the wicked man from among you.
---God's word clearly say's this lifestyle is wrong and detestable to God, it clearly goes against his plan for man and woman and it does not reproduce the world as God wants us to, it offends God and it offends me, I will use God's word to judge you especially if you are going to claim to be among the Church liveing like this. Paul clearly say's Judge the wicked man among you, and expel him, you need to see God's heart, he say's it is detestable what you are doing, You really need to take this to heart if you want to obey God.
^i^ Yes, judgement will come to the Church for it 2000 year persecution of the many groups of innocent people. The Church came to the Americas and said to the natives "you are naked" and forced them to wear clothes. History is full of very bad treatment of innocent people. Have you studied slavery in the US? Slave owner and they were very Christian had the right to raped their slave women, even girls. It was a very bad sin to teach black to write and blacks could not pastor their own churches. At least the Church allowed them to go to Heaven. The Church not only wants the death of gays it want the death of their eternal spirits too. Gays have to became straight to be saved, blacks could stay black. Christians kept women from being full USA citizen till this century (the vote) and still women are not equal to men. This is that curse God put on women. God is about to shake the Church. 2000 years the Church has not observed the Sabbath. This is a very serious matter. They never got the right to fool with the Sabbath Day and it never ended with Jesus death and resurrection. There has to be a atonement for the land for all the days missed. Asians don't regard Jesus because according to Christians should Asians accept Christ when they get to Heaven they will see no ancestors a complete hopeless possibility. I have been told that by Asians even ones that want to try to become Christian. I go to the Jewish chat rooms many times. I have to assure them I am not there to bash them or convert them to Christianity. Last night a 16 year harassed them for over an hour trying to make them Christians. Yes, we can witness to them, but they have a special condition. We bless them and we will be blessed, we curse them and we will be cursed. It is not blessing them telling them they will go to hell if they don't accept the one they killed. Lots of issues exist and you just can't off the street minister to them as you would non-Jews. Some come looking, but in a moment they will see whom they pierced. Christians have abuse the gift of witness. Witnessing means tell people your personal experience with Christ. Teaching can be what you think the Word of God means. Witnessing is not saying is say in Genesis this or that. Teach if you will, but the manner you teach or judge is the manner in which you will be taught or judged. You will be taught soon the truth you won't accept now and I tell you you won't like a lot of it. You will hate your teacher then. If you want to judge me and think you had stand up to me in God sight I am ready to face you at your Church with your pastor present. Have him e-mail me an invitation. If you really want to learn how church is done, if you really want to see obedience, if you really want to see love, if you really want to see God move then get your pastor involved. What credential do you have to state this "I will use God's word to judge". I don't care if you have had tons of Bible school or decades as a born again Christian. What I hear from you is that you are a baby in Christ and don't know how to obey God on serious issues. You are talking about 600 million people and you say you will judge me???? I hear a baby talking that knows little of the word. You have seen the examples I have given you considering the gays issue and what is there for you to study. I am willing to let you pastor and all the leaders in your church to administer all they know in the Spirit of the Lord and the Holy Spirit and to ask anything of me to give account of my faith in Christ Jesus after which you have spent as much time as you can to try to get a hold of God and to prove your point that gay is sin, it will be my turn to call on the Lord and as my faith dictates administer what I am led of the Lord to do. Not to scare you as to think I am a nut I have a 24 year background in the Assemblies of God and generally would fall within their general faith in the operations of the Spirituals Gifts. I may preach, I may lay hands on, I may rebuke, I may just say "show them". I expect God to move. But I also expect your faith can't hold up to your mouth's words to me. I have a demonstrable love and I have a walk with Christ you can't undo. I have knowledge you can't break with the lies about gays. But this will be done publicly under a church covering with your pastor present. You are nobody and have no credentials. If you happen to be a pastor then you would have to obey God and prepare your church's alter for camp meeting. You are not condemning me or judging me as you think you are or would. It is the 700 year Church doctrine and therefore you must stand up in your faith on that doctrine which you did not create, but you only believe in. I am prepared are you? I am ready are You? Jesus is with me this I know, but how do you know he is with you? Is it because you believe a 700 year doctrine?
--You are not born Gay, it is a perversion, and it is a lustfull desire that needs to be controlled by God, if it is natural why don't you see two male lions liveing together in Africa walking around mateing with eachother, you don't because it is not natural, God did not create us for this type of lifestyle.
^i^ Where did you get your biological degree? How long have you study the make up of cell and the DNA? What gene on the latter proved to you gay weren't born that way. God's creation is not mocked because of your ignorance. Science has come a long way. Christian used to believe you bleed people of the poisonous blood when they were sick. Christians believed the world was flat and the Earth the center of the Universe. Now, you say you are expert on genes and DNA, etc.? Are you gay? Are you speaking for 600 million gays? Were you there in person as gays discovered they were gay? Did you see the process against all odds in a world that saturates straight sex conditioning and if you are gay you'd get beast up and hated. How about the remotest tribes. The least influenced people. Why everywhere independently with nothing to promote or bring on or on and on and on I can go. Mommy did not make me gay to sum it up. I am probably more man than you will ever be. I have assumed you were a man with your screen name. I know science on this issue and I know nature of all the animals. I loved learning these things as I grew up. I turned from God at 5 years old tell God I will from now on believe every thing is finally provable and possibly by science. I said science will lead to all truth and henceforth loved truth. It was this love for truth that lead be 27 years later back into the arms of Jesus who never left me all those years. My eyes were opened to all the past miracles in my life and all the training the Holy Spirit worked in my life. I was taught many things that as a Christian I would resist or reject or have much less interest pursuing. I wouldn't have had the experience needed to deal with what I am called to deal with. I got so hooked on Jesus and now 24 years later I have never lessened my walked or in the slightest turned from him. I love him so much. I said " beyond a shadow of a doubt there is no God" and he took me back. You can't know what that means. If you could you'd stop believing gay is sin based on that alone. I have 24 years of blessing a miracles you can't hate away. Not for one second can you take Jesus away with your adamant hatred of gays. You can't say you have love for gays. You lied to me on-line. You sent e-mail representing something of a simple question or opinion from me and what I got was one homophobic e-mail that only gets worse as I read. As I said my writing is not for you, I expect no hope for you hatred to be healed soon. This is for other that will read this on my web sight. There are 10% African gay men that are gays. Some of my best friends are them. An Ex-gay leader before he became it leader and during a time he was more at peace with his miserable life he did do so gay rights stuff in Africa. Lots of gays there and reports come about how they are doing in the USA gay newspapers. So you don't know what you are talking about. Yes, God did make gays and you will be surprised soon at their purpose in the Church. There is quite a story concerning gays in the coming days and why now God is restoring them back to grace in the Church. God has revealed lots on this subject to me. The Bible says that in the Last Days gays will be restored. Shepherds will be given them. The Church took shepherds away and in 1967 Catholic gays started Dignity and in 1969 Protestant gays started MCC and through the years every Christian denomination has gay groups with or without the support of it denomination. In 1969 seculars gays began standing up for their right and have made huge head ways with laws. Today voting is nearly 50/50 on gay issues. Legal marriages actually is seriously possible. There is a lot behind what I say about prophesies concerning gays. And you have not seen but the tip of the ice berg with what roll gays play in the soon coming days. Like many homophobes as they get near to the end of there mouthing off trying to say gay is sin they flee far from the Bible and become sexual degrading creatures. You also though perhaps only slightly, because you are closing, have began to change into fowl manners to describe gays in ever so degrading sex. You only got as far as " mateing with eachother" (your spelling isn't that good, my spell checkers find a lot of problems with you words). These word may change into the very fowl words of other homophobic Christians.
P.S I will send a letter later about the Romans scripture, that has allot to do with the free will God has given to us.
Rodney (Joshua) Joshua was a pretty positive dude you know. His friends saw giants in the lands and he saw a land with milk and honey. Why do you see giants?
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