Gays For Jesus
Question: Your use of the term "homophobic Church" is a little one-dimensional don't you think? Answer: I just simply don't care about any person's wish to make the Bible against gays. The Bible just plain is not against gays.
Comments in reply to
John Gay's concern about his name
On Tue, 11 Nov 1997 13:35:43 -0600 "John Gay" <email@example.com> writes:
Dear Gays for Jesus:
My name is John Gay. You sited my name in your email. I worked on some of the design and production of the Stonewall Revisited site, where you found the John Smid testimony. That's why you found my name in the coding.
Before I respond to some of your statements, let me first say that my surname is irrelevant. The name goes back to England many, many centuries, where it did not have anything to do with homosexuality. Only in our culture, and in our day, has it come to mean homosexual. Just wanted to clarify that.
^i^ I know about your name, the point is simple. It is interesting to have in ex-gay material words that represent positive gay attitudes. You can't change your name so you can't change having a positive insert. Gay just simple means today positive.
Regarding some of the insinuations of your email:
(1) I noticed that you put in some of the "meta tag" information from the page. We put those words into the meta information because our biggest target audience for this site is people who are sexual addicts, and who don't realize they can escape sexual addiction through Christ. Our site informs them that they can. And we use those words so that search engines will call up our site when the people use those words in search fields.
(2) You make mention of our use of the name "Stonewall."
The term "Revisited" means that we are revisiting not the event at Stonewall itself, but rather, homosexuality in general. Similarly, if someone wanted to revisit democracy, they could have a site called "Boston Tea Party Revisited." Our use of the name Stonewall does not necessitate that we endorse homosexuality; thus it is not a contradiction.
^i^ Stonewall concerning gays can't be undone either. You can't undo 1969 and that is what the parades are about every year. It doesn't matter why you used the word it still is positive term for gays. Re-visited what ever. You can't wish it away because of a way to force direct search engines. Your way simply adds a contradictory symbol. Did you think you can undo this fact? Boston tea with any connection with mean against high taxation. Everyone in the world knows about this tea party.
(3) Your use of the term "homophobic Church" is a little one-dimensional don't you think? People are more complex than that. If someone believes that God has called His children not to engage in homosexuality (based on their own study of the Scriptures), that's hardly homophobic. If a person bases their stance on God's Word, how is that homophobic (based on fear of homosexuality/homosexuals)? It isn't homophobic, it's theophobic (based on fearing of going against God's revealed will).
^i^ I just simply don't care about any person's wish to make the Bible against gays. The Bible just plain is not against gays. Not one verses says gay is sin. Homophobic I often explain in my writing as for the purpose and intent to talk about any Christian that hold gay is sin as truth. Under any condition to say gay is sin is completely wrong and unbiblical. "Their own study" is not their own study it is a 700 year old Church anti-gay doctrine. This least you could do is have a brain. You say "how is that homophobic" Can't you see? Of course you can't, that why you are with ex-gays. It is homophobic because a complete lack of study of the other side of the coin exist with these people. If the other side is studied it is studied through pre-existing books by homophobic authors. Never does any of these people do independent studies. I have read around 45 ex-gay leaders testimonies and never once is mention ever any study of material that would show a positive response. In ex-gay ministries never any info from "gay is not sin" camp is shown to their clients. There are too many facts about gay that are out right lied about. You are completely wrong about "theophobic" . I said homophobic because the hatred against gays is not based on the Word of God, if it were gays would be exonerated. Yes, many homophobics do think that if they searched positive sources that they would in fact be reading info from satan or demons. They are in error, your theophobic is misrepresented.
(4) You make mention of "praying a sinner's prayer", as if that's how people become saved. Many people make a profession of faith, pray a prayer, heed an alter call, etc., but these outward acts are not what saves someone. Faith is what saves, and faith is something unseen by us, though God can see it. But one of the ways we can see it is by the fruit of love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control a person exhibits. In other words, a changed life is usually a sign that a person has had faith.
^i^ Now you are being stupid. In my material I explain I am Assemblies of God man, if you have a problem with my Salvation terms take you arguments up with AOG. If have not prayed a specific prayer to ask forgiveness and invite Jesus into your life (heart) then you have missed something. Salvation is not by osmoses. It is not belong somewhere. Its not from parents. It is not even believing the Bible generally. I say generally because many believe and a very wrong are issue in it. You indeed have to make a moment of conscious acceptance of Jesus work on the Cross. If you have not then who are you? What game do you play. You are not even getting the basics of Salvation which is the 1st step of being born again. I am certain you know that. The extra stupid part is you assumption that more happens or is required than just a sinners prayer. I usually always go into details about my walk with Christ. Nearly 24 years have come and gone so try not to be pretentious about the sinners prayer. I will re-iterate if you have not prayed the sinners prayer, then you are not a Christian.
8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; 9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. (KJV)
John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. (KJV)
^i^ When you say a sinners prayer you do the above. There is not actual sinners prayer that saves you, but it means when you actually ask Jesus to Save you that is a sinners prayer. You must recognized you are a sinner and this can only happen if the Holy Spirit draws you to Christ and reveals that you are a sinner. You must believe Jesus was born of a virgin and that God rose him on the 3rd day. You must believe you are suppose to die because you deserved it, but Jesus climbed up on that Cross in your place so that you may live. He paid the price for your sin. He loved you while you were yet a sinner. The prayer can be as simple as the founder of the Full Gospel Businessmen said at the end of every TV program he did on TBN. Lord save me a sinner. In this phrase all of the above is included if you know in your heart it is so. Usually the prayer is slightly longer to cover the basics. Sin, virgin, paid price, 3rd day rising, forgivence, Cross, eternal life. It should not be necessary to explain to " John Smid" the sinners prayer, he professes his Christianity. You also should not need explanation else why are you involved in a ministry? Your statement is to make a wave. Now many think they can just know secretly Salvation. But as you see you must confess it with your mouth. In theory I suppose you over the years by saying to other you believe those things and if at times you ask forgiveness, then Salvation is yours. But it is just to undistinct.
Acts 4:4 Howbeit many of them which heard the word believed; and the number of the men was about five thousand. (KJV)
^i^ How did they hear? It was preached to them and after the preach an invitation was given to come to Christ. If you believe that saying a sinners prayer doesn't get you saved you are very wrong. You call Jesus a liar. You do indeed get Saved when praying a sinners prayer. After that you do many things, 1st drink milk, then more meaty things. The once Saved always saved just isn't Bible either. The NT says too many times that we must make it to the end with words like, hold fast, stand fast, persevere, etc. Why are we asked so many times. I did a study once coming up with 2 plus pages of verses in the NT that indicate we have to stay in faith. No one can take you from Jesus and he will never forsake you, but you can turn your back on him and that is how you get unsaved. I bet you will say you will never turn your back on Jesus. Have you ever asked why is it so important that this is mentioned so many times? What makes you the hero and the others that turn their backs flakes? Why should you be counted a specially able to endure to the end? These warnings to endure weren't especially meant for the last 2000 years though it applied there never was a great need most of the time. Yes, many countries banned Christianity, but it still does not compare with the persevering asked for. We now here in the Last Days will find out more than any other period what it means to standfast. I can spend 30 pages explaining this to you and you will still not think that you have a chance to turn your back on Jesus. It will be a very real decision for you one day soon. There is a 1335 day period for Christians to get through intact to make it to Heaven for the Marriage Supper of the Lamb. 3 billion people will die in this period. Christians will be strongly convinced Jesus lied to them. (he did not) and be extremely confused.
(5) You said that you had to lay your lover on the alter to be saved. From a biblical standpoint, it sounds like you have the order mixed up. While it's true that we know, intrinsically, that salvation will result in a changed life, we don't have to change our lives to be saved. We can't. But our lives are changed after we are saved. And God wants our lives to change, but He first comes to us in grace. With the woman caught in adultery (John 8), Jesus said, "Neither do I condemn you. Go and sin no more." You see the order? Grace of God (salvation) then changed life (sin no more).
^i^ There you go again assuming. I said I had to lay my lover down at the alter as I accept Jesus. Are you nuts? Don't you understand even the basic fundamentals of Salvation? Here you are at the alter some man (Doug Clark) saying to 100 men and women at the alter to pray a prayer. I was a complete atheist at the time. There was no God beyond a shadow of a doubt and you say I should know God's procedures? All I knew was I believed and that I was a sinner and that Jesus is saying he will forget all my sins (please note, all sins not you idea thrown into my mouth that I am think gay is sin), though I was generally a decent law-abiding man, having no great sinful past. The Holy Spirit revealed all sin keep you from God. I wasn't stupid, I knew the Church hated gays and believed gay was sin. When I ask for forgiveness I meant it. I was 100% completely honest to Jesus about coming to him that night. He had completely convinced me from he alone work on my life prior to coming to this meeting. I just never hear such a story of why he came to Earth before and was accepting him based on my love for truth which is a lifetime at that time of 27 years. Because the Church so condemn gays, I covered that base. The Holy Spirit did not say gay is sin repent of it, HE said you are a sinner and This was true. The Church said gay is sin and because I love truth I knew a thing or two about being gay. After all I was 27 at the time and loved all kinds information concerning human nature. I had read tons of books. I guess you think I am pretty stupid don't you. Accepting God does not mean start believing the world is flat or that you must bleed a person to get sickness out of the body. Accepting God does not mean we must stop believe we have the technology to go to the moon. Accepting Jesus doesn't mean start believing lies. Jesus is truth and when you accept Jesus you have that foundation. So if gay were sin it would and could be found. I was extremely honest with Christ when in that second of laying all my sins on the alter that in my minds eye I could say to Jesus look 3 feet behind my back is the man I love. If gay were sin I will leave him. But you are the God of all truth I ask you to teach me. Jesus was LOVE and TRUTH and I love my lover and you just don't walk up to the one you love and say get out of my life because gay is sin without a shred of evidence except the Church says its sin. I was so full of God that night in a CLOUD that was visible. I floated to the back stage with the counselors. The man that led us (less than five minute the whole evening about Salvation) to Christ voice floated over and above me I was 30 feet away from him and thought he walked over to me. It was all white with my eyes closed. When I opened them he was instantly way over the other side at his podium. I had $4. 58 to my name any where and prayed for a Bible. I had no idea where I could get one and went to K-Mart and found one for $4. 57 the very next day. I don't know about you but I was so hooked on Jesus and it never let up even till this day almost 24 years later. I started immediately reading everything I could get my hands one. There just was no positive info about gays and I hadn't the foggiest idea where to go except Christian book stores, even with the negative material I found so clearly that gay was not sin from straight sources. I nearly lived in these store reading original language and everything. My lover and I started attending Assemblies of God. I was baptized in the Holy Spirit way before I knew it existed and 6 month after I accepted Jesus I was baptized in water at AOG. I went to every service for 11 years including guest speakers and the week or two long workshops on every aspect of the Bible. TBN also began around the same time I got Saved and I found that and spent tons of time going to there meetings which filled convention centers. I went to many well know healing ministries and the Christian stations were glued in position on my TV and radio. I spent 5 year going regularly to other denomination taking around 20 people (I was a care giver) and so had quality time at many churches. MY lover was an Indian and so I spent 10 years visiting the reservation up to five times a year attending Christian meeting there. What fabulous move of God. Everywhere AOG style prophets called me out to saying God had a word for me and prophesied details of God's love for me and my love for him and details of Hid call on my life as to what sort of ministry I would be doing. What is this concern you are having about the phrase "sinners prayer" These details should give you questions as to why God has been so close for so long and showing gay is not sin. But you will wash this under the carpet and reject my past that is a fact and find some way to mock me because of the word gay associated with my name.
(6) Also in your statement, "you have to kick out the one you love to get saved", you imply that the Church has one standard for heterosexuals and one for homosexuals. That is not the case. I am a heterosexual. I am single and have been a Christian for ten years. During that time I've been abstinent from sexual activity. During that time God has healed me of the sexual sins of my past and show me how to have a proper relationship with those of the opposite sex. Why can't the same be true for homosexual men who have become believers? It is true; that's what the Stonewall Revisited stories say.
^i^ Because you can't find a wife doesn't other must also not find a wife. Who care about your sexual sins. The evil in your words is this means you are saying if you are gay even in a loving caring relationship you are to abstain from sex. Why don't you tell Christian straight married couple to abstain from sex? Because you think gay is sin. The Church does have a double standard, it tells a gay person they can't be gay and saved or at least if gay don't ever have sex again. The Bible has other things to say about those that forbid marriage and it also says if a bonified Christian married couple decide to fast and pray not having sex for that time that they just cut that fasting as short as possible hurrying back to sex with each other or satan can temp them. SEX is not a problem for Jesus. The Church in general has the problem. 62% of single Christians have sex on their first dates. I don't care if you are playing the monk. Don't play games with God's children. Something is dreadfully wrong with the Church not Jesus concerning sex. If the Church is so right about sex why the high figures? Simple explanation avoids real facts that won't go away and certainly does not bring results of less sex sinning. Why the high divorce rate, why are children in such rebellion? Are you now going to say I don't know what I am talking about. No manner what credential I give you you will reject me because of the tag by my name "gay". I worked over 3 years with sexual straight sinners dealing directly with a number of therapist in this field. I spent 5 year as a care giver counselor. One year of college (not much but something). I received 300,000 phone calls in 3 years from my viewers during the first 3 year of my TV program which now is in its 13th year. I spent a year in personal pastors (around 25 pastors, Pentecostal) home Bible studies in which I was personally invited even with them knowing I was(am) gay. I have 2. 75 years averaging 2 hours a day in Christian chat rooms where I 95% of the time become center stage. I get tons of mail and e-mail. You tell me do I have some remote chance of knowing a little about Bible things and people? I went to 9 year of observing gay dating marriages behavior of thousands of gays. (try not to be stupid enough to say I was dating thousands). I have nearly 40 years of observing straight dating and marriages and much of that pretty up close. Gays get special education because straights love to talk about the details of their dating. I am surprised how many women confided to me concerning their dating and marriages. Why do you assume gays are not shown how to have a proper relationship with the opposite sex or the same sex? Hey I have enough problems to get God's help concerning sex. I am almost 51 and believe me God has shown me a lot concerning sexual behavior whether gay or straight and whether its my own life. The main message to people from the Church is that to heap heavy weights onto the shoulders of babes in Christ so that their sex lives may never get resolved. By the way where are your credential. God sent a man to me once. I had asked God to confirm some things about my ministry and TV program. I had ask that God give me the answer during a 2 week vacation. It was actually quite a long list and it was Thursday at the end and still no answer and I just figured I would just not get the answer at this time. I was wrong. A man on a mountain top looked down at the lake I was at with no intention of going there. He suddenly as he told decided to go there anyway. He parked next to me and set up camp. He was alone, but set out 2 chairs as though expecting company. I would have never considered visiting with him even for a second. He went fishing in his raft. I went in mine as well as my plan for the day. We got back about the same time. I put the fish away and he came over and invited me to talk with him. He asked some things about me and I had decided I was not going to play some sort dual life game and said frankly I was producing programs and what I was preaching, he ask if I were gay and I said yes. He told me he appreciated my honesty. He asked to see a program. I had just finished one and showed that to him. He was very amazed. He now got into revealing information about himself. He explained that anyone can say anything they want, but without credibility it has little meaning. He said my program was my credibility. There was nothing actually needed to add because I was indeed preaching a message in which showed enough to him that whether that when I contend my call it is just not talk or wishful thinking. That the program was presented with the ingredients of credibility. Now does this man how his own credibility? He told me he usually would charge an arm and a leg for his counseling, but he is impressed with what he has seen and so will give me a lesson on credibility. He said if I were to accept what he says I'd would be the fool with he producing or there be some backup supporting he has the credibility to say these things. He had told me earlier that he had patents on many things. In on instance on the bolt action of a rifle. Wiston had one patents for the whole rifle, but this man had 16 patents just on the bolt action. He went on to say he made the training template ( a one piece mechanism to show several facets machinists must learn at Boeing) which was an extremely high cost savings device. He also created a method to teach Trigonometry to Boeing workers in a way that cut learning down to nothing almost to learn this math. He had the copyright on that. He also said that the top four Boeing officials called him in to advise on certain things in their training Boeing personal. He told me I should not assume what he or anyone says concerning their expertise or other to validate their expertise or what ever on whatever without the ability to produce their credibility. Now he said I have told you these thing about my self without show credibility. He then went and pulled out a suitcase and some well known magazines. He showed the cover page with him on it and the various accomplishment that he told me about. He pulled out a signed letter of accommodation from the Boeing officials and a well know Rifle magazine with him on the cover saying he was the first man with this many patents on any part of a rifle. He say this was not shown me to boast but to show me about the importance of credibility and that I have that program. We talked for 2 days and I don't know where he got it but he had my long list I gave to God to answer when I went on vacation and everything was answered. And just as quickly as he came he was gone. I was giving my credibility to John Smid and now some 35-40 other ex-gay founders and leaders when I present my past. These things happened. Mr. John Gay have you spoken on the phone to 300,000 people that watched you on TV where 75% were homophobic Christians? Do you spend time in Christian chat room where you are center stage? Have you been on TV every week for over 12 years? Have you have leaders in the Church prophesy over you hundreds of times? Whether you have or not isn't important, but that I have is, I am the gay Christian standing here talking to you what is my credibility? Whether you agree or not isn't the point, but that my past stands and you can't undo it. These things happened. God did do it. Jesus is with me and you can't make my hundred's of thousands of cases of non-effect probably doubled since that was a 3 year period and now its into my 13th year. I know what I am talking about when I call you a homophobe no matter how you glitter it over. I know the Word of God concerning the 13 verses the church uses to condemn gays. I know about straight Christians intimate life with Jesus and gay Christians intimate life with Jesus. I have not covered much. I babble on to repeatedly knot it through people like you heads.
(7) You say that "the Church has long since said that gay is sin." This statement implies that people are following the words of other people. That is not so. The Church, for the most part, is following the words of God, not other people, on this issue. The Church didn't decry homosexuality; God did. Your beef is with God, not the Church. In both Old and New Testaments, the Bible clearly states that those who "leave the world" and come into the covenant community are supposed to live by a new set of standards. This was true for Israel and for the Church. When you "leave the world" and become a member of God's family, God says, "I don't want you to behave like the rest of the world anymore." This includes a whole host of behaviors, not only (but including) homosexuality.
^i^ I can't believe this, you just don't get it do you? The Church for the record has officially been condemning gays for 700 years. Tons of info on this. Before the end of the 12th century the Church rarely condemn gays and the record show those that did were condemn by the Church. Lot of things happened at the end of the 12th. The Church joined with State in their law making for one. The Church just has not really used the Bible except to find how they can use it to support the lie they have about gays. Gays were placed with Jews in classification 700 years ago. Jews were considered the lowest class of people. What do you think Jew are considered today according to the Bible? When a straight person comes to Christ is that straight person suppose to leave the world of his marriage to his wife? Your statement speaks with forked tongue, gay one standard straights another. Here you say God decry gay is sin not the Church. The Bible does not say gay is sin. Sodomite is not another word for gay. You can't wish sodomites into gay people. Sodomite are temple prostitutes and there is tons of info readily available on the subject from straight sources. You are calling gays temple prostitutes and call boys. Sorry, straight prostitutes does not make straight sin and neither does male prostitutes make gay sin. I have as I said talked to hundreds of thousands on the details why they believe gay is sin. Christians that think gay sin universally think because the prostitution is same sex that means homosexual. Its easy for them to acknowledge the act of temple or regular prostitution, but impossible for them to understand why this doesn't prove gay sin. The clearest picture can't change their minds. There on the corner a women selling her body for $50. 00. There a man comes up gives her the money and takes her to a motel and have sex then leaves. This is prostitution, right? Then why isn't straight sin? Because when this happens with a man selling his body and another man paying for that sex you say that is homosexual and not prostitution. Why the difference? Why when a man in a temple cuts off his things with rituals knives their at that temple's alter then after surviving accept money in payment for sex with men (even women) give a percentage to the temple and uses the rest to live. This same man dresses like a woman because this is more acceptable to the straight men that come to them to have sex in performance of ritualistic temple worship to gain blessing for their lives. How is this related to the 600 million gays in the world today let alone the gays that always were at that 10% mark. I know you hate that 10% you always have to fight it to make it sound more like 1% right? Yeh 1% can support Seattle's 80,000 gay parade march in a city of 500,000. While at the same time its happening all around the country while hey you know how many attend ex-gays. Most gays stay home, where do the 1% comes from. Many are straight supporters? I have been to around 15 gay parades, don't get your hope up that there are a large number of straight. Gays that don't know Christ behaves like the rest of the world, gay that know Christ act like straight that know Christ. How do I know credentials. I spent years going to gay churches and visiting gay Christians as I was also going to straight churches. I know a lot about both gay and straight Christians. I probably know more about ex-gays than you ever could and even more about ex-gay leaders and I mean personally face to face besides all my research. I know a straight Assemblies of God woman that spent 25 years on the gay issues and at first work in ex-gay a ministry in SF where she knew personally 100 ex-gay men. She left because she saw the lies that were told them and things that just did not make since with the Word concerning this issue. Later she returned finding all 100 gone, but she knew them and found everyone of them, most were better Christian, but quite gay, all found ex-gay ministry did not work a 100% failure rate. The founders of Exodus now preaching across the US also tell of the 100% failure rate of that ministry. The Church uses verse without consideration of the verse's historical use by the Church. Catholics started the anti-gay doctrine and by the 14th century the rest adopted it. Yes you John Day did not use the Bible to find gay is sin you used a doctrine that has a history. I did not create the history, it is a written down recorded fact.
Homosexuality is becoming normative in our society, and it has been normative in other societies in past history; but does that make it normative in God's eyes? The covenant communities in the Bible are Israel and the Church. Israel is set apart from the nations. The Church is not a national or societal entity. In both cases, you have a people that are not to be affected by the whims of the society(ies) around them. Israel and the Church are to submit to God, but not to culture. In our society today, especially on this issue, many people are submitting to the [changing] culture rather than to the timeless standards of God.
^i^ Our culture use to incorporate black is inferior and no black allowed to minister as pastor or priest. It was a grievous sin to teach a black to read. How long did it take us to get respect to blacks and we still have problems with it. Women just this century got the right to vote. Do you still hold to Church teaching of our more recent past that women are inferior and don't have the right to vote. What did women have to do to convince men of God to legally give them the right to vote. The cultural Church standard before 1850 was masturbaters won't inherit the Kingdom, but a clergy convention all agreed that no one would enter heaven so they agreed to change how they taught this verse to gays won't inherit because it was already well established that gays were low class in sin. No one would care. Did I make up this convention? Blacks have been becoming normative this century. Women are becoming normative. Physically challenged is becoming normative. Today the Church is getting very involved with politics trying to get laws past that conform to their ideas of the Bible. God never ever wanted his people to condemn and mistreat people. Do you want to get into the Bible concerning straight marriages? There are plenty that clearly shows the Church is far from obeying God's word here. Marriage the way we know it is not how you get married per BIBLE. It is a recent thing to require state license and marriage by pastors with all the hoopla. Generally you were married when you moved in with the other person and the Church and State accepted that. For the common folk ceremonial church wedding is only recently required. John Gay I have a personal relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ and the Bible is my source to confirm everything. You haven't known a day of my life and by you hanging out with ex-gays you have only some of the sickest mentally people to relate to. What you are telling me shows me you know little about the Bible let alone fact about the Church and gays.
The saddest part in all this is that many Christians with homosexual desires are submitting to the culture's whims. They are buying into pro-gay theology, which is actually just people twisting God's Word to meet the desires of their flesh. God says that all things are possible with Him; and He says He wants His children to behave different from the rest of the world. If we are behaving like the rest of the world, have we taken advantage of the power of change He offers? I don't think so. If God says He wants us to live one way, and He says that through HIM we can accomplish that, why don't we just take Him at His Word? Do we not really believe that He is capable of changing our lives? And have we forgotten that all of life is a battle of flesh versus the Spirit, and that those born of the Spirit are to "put to death the deeds of the flesh"? These aren't just archaic, Puritanical principles; they're for today, for you and me, for our culture. There is a permanent world that is more important than this temporary one. Are we living for this world, or for the next one? The lesser, or the greater?
^i^ Funny you preaching to me as though I am a babe in Christ. Tell me have you ever been told in the USA that if you preach Jesus as Christ they will send you to prison? I am not talking about some wishy washy threat. I am talking about someone that has the power to do so and will do it. In my case God sent a pastor to me that evening and told me to agree with them your enemy and later God will give you authority over such people. Have you begged God not to raise you to the highest position while you just wanted to finish what had to be done and leave. I knew God would, it wasn't even a doubt. I did say nevertheless thy will be done and I was raised to the highest position. I had no qualifications. How can I sit at the head of 50 people after two meetings of the committee? Of course there are tons of details that set the tone into exactly God's behavior told his faithful. Here is your example of twisting God's Word:
Deut 23:17 There shall be no whore of the daughters of Israel, nor a sodomite of the sons of Israel. (KJV)
6945 qadesh (kaw-dashe'); from 6942; a (quasi) sacred person, i.e. (technically) a (male) devotee (by prostitution) to licentious idolatry: KJV-- sodomite, unclean.
^i^ Plain and simple, no frills, just down to Earth completely in context and complies with historical facts. Yet, you say "sodomites" means homosexual. 5 Old Testament and 2 new testament verses use sodomite. Hundreds of thousands of Christians say sodomite means homosexual. Your scholars says it comes from sodomy which come from the sin of Sodom. Historical records say sodomites often cut their ding dong off and usually wore women clothes because the straight men liked that better. The Bible says rid the land of sodomite who built there whore house right against the Temple of God. What is so hard to figure out that these are temple prostitutes well recorded in history. 7 verses are wrong out of 13. Isn't that enough to warrant more study on the remaining. Gen 19 is not about a loving caring relationship but about a decision by every male in 2 cities. How many. Was it a hundred men, 200, a 1000, 10,000. These cities we are told, Abraham fought a war saving Sodom for Lots sake. This give us Bible back info on that it was not a small town and that it had commerce and other things guaranteeing it was a predominately straight city. Every boy mind you and every grandpa too came to Lot's house. Was every man and boy gay?
Gen 19:14 So Lot went out and spoke to his sons-in-law, who were pledged to marry his daughters. He said, "Hurry and get out of this place, because the LORD is about to destroy the city!" But his sons-in-law thought he was joking. (NIV)
^i^ No 2 men were straight of the citizens of Sodom. To know doesn't mean sex:
3045 yada` (yaw-dah');
a primitive root; to know (properly, to ascertain by seeing); used in a great variety of senses, figuratively, literally, euphemistically and inferentially (including observation, care, recognition; and causatively, instruction, designation, punishment, etc.) [as follow]:
KJV-- acknowledge, acquaintance (-ted with), advise, answer, appoint, assuredly, be aware, [un-] awares, can [-not], certainly, comprehend, consider, X could they, cunning, declare, be diligent, (can, cause to) discern, discover, endued with, familiar friend, famous, feel, can have, be [ig-] norant, instruct, kinsfolk, kinsman, (cause to let, make) know, (come to give, have, take) knowledge, have [knowledge], (be, make, make to be, makeself) known, + be learned, + lie by man, mark, perceive, privy to, X prognosticator, regard, have respect, skilful, shew, can (man of) skill, be sure, of a surety, teach, (can) tell, understand, have [understanding], X will be, wist, wit, wot.
^i^ Jude implies sex:
Jude 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. (KJV)
1608 ekporneuo (ek-porn-yoo'-o); from 1537 and 4203; to be utterly unchaste: KJV-- giveself over to fornication.
^i^ Follow throw a little"
4203 porneuo (porn-yoo'-o); from 4204; to act the harlot, i.e. (literally) indulge unlawful lust (of either sex), or (figuratively) practise idolatry: KJV-- commit (fornication).
^i^ It begins to turn into sodomite doesn't it. Or at least prostitution. Of either sex, here it means straight but can be applied to gay prostitutes. Other similar Greek leads directly to the including of male prostitutes with saying if they are straight or gay. Tell me what part am I twisting? Further when I ring up topical studies it list all 13 verses as meaning sodomite :
-(The inhabitants of Sodom, many of whom openly practiced homosexuality)
-Destroyed by fire as a judgement
-To be judged according to opportunity
-A proverbial term of reproach applied to those who practiced sodomy (ritual homosexuality)
-The word "harlot" ("shrine prostitute" (N. I. V.)) appears in
-And is applied to males
-And is the translation of a Hebrew feminine form of the word translated elsewhere "sodomite"
(Outline from Nave's Topical Bible)
^i^ the above is a topical search which even shows you from straight resources which are extremely popular mean temple prostitutes. Sodomy list includes everything all 13 verses as meaning the same. How can some mean temple prostitute and then they say each and every word mean exactly the same from the remaining few verses? Did I or the gay community twist something here? Submitting to culture's setting? Culture's setting was Christian be thrown to the lions at one time and it was a submission to that culture by Christians that they should die a martyrs death. Christians have submitted until recently to the culture that women should not vote. Christian are submitting to Masons who are bringing in antichrist kingdom. Masons tracing their origins to the Flood have had one goal and that to re-establish the Days of Noah. Gays now are not submitting to Christian established culture that lies about them constantly. PRO-GAY theology? You have bought into anti-gay theology so does that make you right? So if a gay couple have sex it the desires of the flesh, but if straight couples have sex it nature fulfillment of marriage and gift from God? When I accepted Christ my life radically changed. I was chief atheist, I bet you haven't a clue what I mean, so don't guess. In less than a second I believed in God, the second before I believed beyond a shadow of a doubt their was no God. I picked up the Bible and ask myself how can this be. I believe this book that I never so much as read a single word in it, not believes it is the Word of the Living God and is alive to change every fabric of my being. My life was changed I stopped doing many things without hesitation, I stopped drinking. I could not stop being good those good things God wanted to stay in my life. But I was completely surprised at how I had changed and that these changes were permanent. Over the next several months other things began to change that needed truth. Other philosophies that I knew had validity and worked with results needed time where I could find it in the Bible. I wasn't about to accept a any bodies word on certain things for the sake they said it, I would search God's Word and that meant if its there I will find it as I read it many times. I found astrologers would burn. It took no brains to see God's word meant that was sin. No special historical research or study into the originals to find loop hole in Church preaching on this. It was up front and frank. I had to find things about mysticism in the Word, because in real life these thing in truth worked they were real and on the surface can be use for good or bad, but little to do with other gods. However, the Bible leave no doubt on this subject. No need to find what is really being taught here. It is extremely well documented and no lies built in to conceal the truth that it is ok. Plain as day these are sin and against God. Alcohol and drugs. I drank a lot one night a week in fun with friends and buddies, in the USAF that was life. Drugs I tested twice,but had a built in mind set that was all I would ever do be cause it hurts you badly in the end same with smoking so nothing to give up just foundation never to play with that again. I had a desire to preach and tell everyone about Jesus. My motorcycle had Jesus sticker everywhere and so did my jacket. (small motorcycle and normal jacket, just to drive to work mostly) I helped at a local Church where an incredible thing happened one day ( I was very close to that church and helped out a lot with them even was in the choir) this day I went to that church and in part of the parking lot going under a huge shade tree up to the sidewalk and into the Garden was a perfectly scaled huge drawing of a figure found in gay newspapers and flyers of the day (mid 70's). It was extremely accurate. For me it was a very good symbol of gays. There were many, but this one for me was a great representation of gays. It was a beach boy like figure. When I saw it meant to me a decent representation of the gay community as any model may represent to organization in the straight world or advertising. It was not indecent. It just could not have been painted or drawn so quickly to such scale. It was really a surprise to see. I though everyone would know I was gay. Some people I was close to were curious and I told them it was a popular gay icon. These had no problem with gays, I don't know what the church would have thought, but they would have no idea its meaning. It was really neat to see. How could anyone draw it over such a variety of surfaces. At least ten saw it. It wasn't a church day and so after a while we left, shortly we returned and not a trace of it. It was drawn with white chalk and not trace of chalk residue left. You may want to say God was saying gay was sin with the picture, but you are missing the enormity of the event. If God did it meant only good representation of gays. The church never said boo about it. It spoke very loud and clear( remember I am me and you are you, you can't apply your wish to a past event) it said John I am here with you and I know you and I love you and pleased with you. Can you undue that? Any word can't undue that, you have to reject the fact. Time would bring still more growing and shaping me. I could not have known how deep some valleys would be and how close God would stay with me in these valleys. Jesus constantly was there. Some thing I had plenty of questions on before being able to receive power to change and God gave those answers. I have other things too that require and demand truth from God, but God has given my the power and strength to go many years without the answers which await a very powerful future message to God's people. When you write your comments to me you have not the foggiest idea what you are talking about just like those before you. Had you spent time with me you would have to completely change every comment. But you see the word gay with my name and so you have no need to know anything further about me do you? Is the Church behaving like the rest of the world? Do they fight in courts, do they make laws against human beings. Do they divorce, do they join every kind of club. Look at you how many questions did you ask me about my walk. You can review what you said to me above. You just jumped on me, Had you paid attention to what I wrote Smid you would have seen thing about me that would have shown you I had some time as a Christian and I have not been lacks as a Christian. All you want when a gay comes to Christ is to see they don't have gay sex anymore. Nothing else about their lives is important. If they were murders or thieves or smokers or worshipping satan directly or beat their lovers or were in the mob or gangs committing violence, or drunk driving, or out making false witness against people, what ever of the untold numbers you can find of sins, none of that matters to you if they so completely left all these other things. If you saw that they were still with the Christian lover with the same leaving of all things like I mentioned and they were living faith fully together in a loving caring, monogamous relationship, and for decades you'd say they have not repent and would go to hell if they don't change and be straight or stop having sex together at least. Nothing will please you , you do not use the Bible when the Bible explains things to you about people and their behaviors. You just say buying into pro-gay, submitting to world culture, etc. God told you to live celibate for the last 10 years right, did He tell you I should live the same way? How did God tell you? You don't know me so you have to rely on God's word don't you. Your pattern has sent you on a life that is not normal for Christian straights. Christian straights are supposed to marry. You are not why? 10 years is a very long morning the loss time. Is it that women just don't like you? Do you have something you want to tell us that we don't know about you? Do you hate women. Do you feel that by not marrying you give your whole self to God? Hey, that is fine, just don't put others in you walk, that is your walk and you must walk it. Anytime you want to deal with the gay issues concerning the Bible I am here. Nearly 24 years of personal study so don't give this buying into this pro-gay theology. I was looking at this way before established information became available. I was there in the middle of straight scholar's research. It took years for the gay church's to get established. I wasn't easy to find their material and some of there material is wrong, but insignificantly. PFLAG is a perfect example of straights searching independently to find gay is not sin. Buying into, be serious. Another example of how you and so many buy into the 700 year old anti-gay doctrine. Just lie about the facts. . Parents of gays had no access to pro-gay theology as you say, they just found out Johnny's gay and they must disown him according to pastor. Many parent don't buy the anti-gay doctrine because Johnny will go to hell with no hope. They find this out over the years and there is no references to material, so the search, libraries, all the straight homophobic authors, therapists, on and on and on they search the Word of God. They learn they write books and what they learn too. Parent will other fight for their children's lives. Then they begin finding other like themselves and find they learned the same things after searching the Word and life and everything they could get their hands on. They learn what I learned. I know I am gay I know how I feel and what I see. The facts speak many times louder that your condemnations. Truth wins these parents found what I found and they found what many many gay Christian find when the seek truth in God's Word. . Gays if in sin must have a way out and it would be truth, what we have is lies and no hope, but a unless future of denial of you are. Yet, you can only say they are buying into pro-gay theology? I have read so many ex-gay leaders testimony and personal went to then to see and hear testimonies to see if there is a least on that has a representative testimony. Every other sine has very consistent testimony of deliverance why can't it be so with gays. Why can't decades go by and large number be found, they just aren't and their lives before coming to ex-gays and their childhoods just is so full of sick mental attitudes and warped thinking on what's going on around them. Every ex-gay leader has a pathetically sick past. I really would like to find one that has a reasonable past like most gays, but I just can't find any. Can you please send me a testimony of a person that was not this sick person already needing a therapist just to lift their heads above water.
^i^ Its nice you felt like preaching to me, but milk is for babes. I am looking for your expertise on the gay issues that relate to the 600 million gays. Tell me why the ex-gay leaders were so miserable growing up and why it just does not fit the norm with most gays. Everyone has problems, just don't make regular problems a proof gay is sin. Most gay can adjust to Christian hatred. ( please don't go into a term discussion. Behavior tells a person if they are loving or hating. Your mouth can tell me you love, but your actions speaks louder than the words "I love you". ) Ex-gay leaders and founders never adjusted to the hate that the Church can and does give. There a many churches that demonstrate love to gays, but to say gay is sin is not love. You see the Bible is wonderful it is there for everyone to dive into and confirm everything. You are stuck on this behaving like the world thing, why? Did you go to an unbelieving gay and saw he was living worldly? If you want to see worldlyness then look around you in your church and you'll find plenty. As for me I am Christ's, he is my everything and all I live for. I love him so much. What words can you say that could undo my love for him? What judgement can you give that will take me away from him? I know he can change your perception of gays, I also know what he will do if you don't. Jesus has messengers warning God's people. So far by observing the Church the Church hasn't even come close to obeying GOD' warning messages. The Bible clearly says this would be the case. You see God will get all the Glory, if the Church was doing well we wouldn't be able to see HIS Glory manifested. But like the Nation of Israel so the Church disobeys God and likewise God rises up nations to come against HIS people till they repent. 1260 days are for the breaking of the power of God's people. You won't see the Church coming round about gays until its to late. The cup will be full and HE will move. So much of the Bible tells of this DAY. Yet, most the Church ignores it. It places blame on innocent ones. But God's love is so great that even in this time period HE has people HE's prepared to restore HIS people that has fallen. It won't be a small fall. Anyway, I will add your reply to my web site with the ex-gay testimonies I am replying to. . . Thanks for the opportunity to talk at ya. Sorry you have a hang up with your name John Gay. I still think its neat, Stonewall and John Gay what a contradiction to ex-gay ministries, also Integrity was used which is the Episcopalian gay church and it all built in and you did it on purpose too. NEAT.
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