Gays For Jesus
Right away we have this extremely unloving way of the homophobic Church saying to the gay person "you have to kick out the one you love to get saved"
Comments on John Smid's testimony
Of "Love In Action" ex-gay ministry
^i^ You get a little preamble I guess so you can see what Love in Action covers
Journey Out of Homosexuality
AIDS, gay, homosexual, lesbian, sex, sexuality, anal sex, bestiality, bondage, s&m, sm, pictures, photos, naked, men, women, dyke, dike, butch, queer, hope, fear, pressure, life, lifestyle, help, advice, answer, gender dysphoria, transvestites, transsexuals, transexuals"
Is there an escape from the pressures of gay life today? Handling a gay, homosexual, or lesbian lifestyle. Answers to problems. No longer a homosexual."
^i^ I find it a little amusing that some of these ex-gay testimony has hints of contradictions. Stonewall is a time and place. Generally some drag queens stood up to police at a bar named Stonewall and were hauled off to jail. This began the secular gay rights movement, meaning gays began politically standing up and fighting for better treatment through the legal system and or otherwise non-religious means to obtain the same. Also, a guy named John Gay was involved in this preamble. Now below starts John Smid's testimony.
Journey Out of Homosexuality
By John Smid
Leaving a gay relationship was just the first step in finding real freedom from my past.
^i^ Right away we have this extremely unloving way of the homophobic Church saying to the gay person "you have to kick out the one you love to get saved" I remember too having to lay my lover relationship on the alter as I prayed the sinners prayer accepting Jesus because the Church had long since said gay is sin and if you are coming to Christ even without anyone knowing you are gay to ask you to throw out your lover first you still know the Church thinks gay is sin so of course this is an honest soul baring time and so what choice has one but to cover all bases and place their lover at the alter so God could get rid of them or help you to. This is really a horrible thing the Church has placed on gays. No straight ever has to consider giving up their spouse for Christ.
"John, you don't have to live this way any longer," a voice said to me one night in 1982. Little did I know that such a simple statement during a church service would have a life-changing effect on me.
I had already come to acknowledge that Jesus was my Savior and that the Bible was exciting to read, but still my life was completely tied to the homosexual lifestyle. The words I heard that night were not audible, but they were absolutely clear to me. God had just given me the hope I needed to face two of the most difficult years of my life.
^i^ Well I must have missed the date you accept Christ. I remember exactly when I accepted him. Why is it that ex-gays always relate to being gay like "tied to homosexual lifestyle"? Why can't you say tied to a straight lifestyle? Real life facts if you are gay or straight in that way as it were you will live. Perfectly natural. You make it sound like gays can only operate each and every second on sex sex sex sex sex sex. Why be so blind? Being tied to the straight lifestyle means having sex with your spouse if married otherwise with your date, it means going to work and entertainment, and the business of the household. Its buying cars and food and fishing. Its going to church and school and watching TV. Its voting and breaking up and making up. Its planning the future and working out the past. Its visiting friends and family. Its going to the doctor and hiking a mountain. So what is the big issue about tied to the gay lifestyle? Gay or straight we do the same things in and out of bed. If you want sexual immorality you have to look first at the kings and queens of sexual immorality and they are straights. To the tune of 97% to 3%. If you want misery and depression straights have it in high degrees. These kinds of thing do not make gay sin or tied to it. Being gay is perfectly natural for gays and being tied to it has no meaning just like being tied to a straight life style is not a major point in straight people's lives. Because some gays are sick and need a therapist doesn't make gay sin. The Church takes advantage of these sick gays and says it because you are gay. So you base gay is sin because a feeling implied you can be straight? I am nearly 24 years old in Christ Jesus and filled in a Pentecostal way with the Holy Spirit. Speaking in other tongues, etc. I have had audible hearing from God. Jesus greets me many times a day with a special greeting when I call on his name he answers instantly. Just about every time I am in church I am often over whelmed with his love and tears of joy flood down my face. He laughs with me too. I talked to him a lot about the gay issues because he called me to tell his people that gay is not sin. He gives me direction to find things I though impossible to find concerning these issues. He does so much more. So how should I feel about your vague little feeling? You have to explain why God moves in gay people's lives like I just explained, but instead you are here telling readers gay is sin. So many fact and the truth thrown to the wind for the sake to say gay is sin.
Those next two years were filled with relational bankruptcy and lost hope. By this time in my life, I was quite aware of my salvation but did not really understand what God had to say about homosexuality. I thought that a homosexual relationship with another Christian would work, but no matter how hard I tried, I still had a deep emptiness in my heart that no man could fill. I was fearing the most dreaded thing of all: being alone.
^i^ A very common ex-gay testimony and total void of the knowledge of God's word and a complete lack of research to see if his word condemn gays like the Church keeps tell everyone. Please note: Many in the Church do not hold to the anti-gay doctrine and the number is growing. Why? Not because evil is waxing more evil and many in the church are falling away to deceiving spirits. But because individuals are obeying God and reading and studying for themselves the Bible issues. Being young them I can understand the confusion of the myth that Christians with Christians is the making for a sound relationship, but the facts speak out. The 50% to 60% divorce rate is Christians at the same rate. Pastors have tons of counseling on broken Christian marriages. So believing having a gay lover that is Christian does not equal happiness and does not mean gay is sin. Once you compare gays and straights when seeing if your situation merits proof God hate gays or "it practice" you will find no difference. Yes, it is not fun to have a broken relationship that just won't go together no matter how much you pray. Life was not meant to be easy. Haven't you read the two major curses God put on people, actual three? He curse woman to hurt during child birth and made the man think he is her superior so he can dominate her. He cursed the ground that if be hard to make a living. With these curses never lifted, the Cross did not remove them, we have a lot to contend with and this make for much pain. Yet, Christ Jesus helps us and comforts us and much more. But he will not lift the curses till the last day of the TRIB.
On Valentine's week in 1984, I made one of the hardest decisions of my life. Instead of red roses and romance, I began moving away from a three-year relationship. The true Lover of my soul was asking me to make a choice. I could either choose to go to a Christian singles' retreat weekend which was quite threatening to my lover, or continue in the patterns of relational and sexual addiction.
^i^ So you say disown the ones you love is a virtue? If we count the cost of preaching gay is sin we instantly come up with the Church ask 28,000,000 parents (56,000,000 people) to disown their children. You may think this untrue that the Church is just saying they could get delivered someday, but in the mean time reject openly everything they are. YOU are telling us you began rejecting your lover based on you idea that gay was sin. In fact you accepted your choice to go to a singles meeting. You weren't single in God's eyes so you were beginning to commit adultery. I know a little about Christian singles retreat, yes they can be very uplifting in the Lord, but the term "singles" isn't just happens not to be married. It means the main point is to become married with someone of your own faith. For you very adulterous. The same rules apply. Now what do you have a sexual addiction to your wife? Oops I haven't read you got married yet, but you know what I mean. You can't make a loving caring relationship into sexual addiction with your meaning gay is sin.
A new church that I had found offered something I had never seen before. For the first time in my life, I was relating to men who seemed to be loving, sensitive, physically and emotionally affirming, all in a non-sexual context. The singles' retreat offered something for me that I had looked for all my life: A social environment with others my age that was reflective of my Christian faith. I had been raised in a Catholic home where my father was clearly sold out to God but I could not seem to find a place for myself where I felt I really belonged. I gave up "religion" when I married my first wife, thinking I could now make it on my own.
^i^ Typical bisexual story again. Why is it that so many ex-gay leaders are bisexuals these days? True gays just can't last can they in trying to become straight because they think gay is sin. But now bisexual on the other hand can stick in there a little longer, especially if they were lucky enough to marry someone that loves you and you love them and can work out your differences. You failed with your first wife and your bisexuality was at work and you did your homosexual side again. I tell you should this, (first must mean there is a 2nd) 2nd relationship fail you your nature as a bisexual will come out of hiding because you are what you are and that is how God made you and wishful thinking won't make it go away. There sure a lot of Catholic background ex-gay leaders about too. I have read a lot and personally talked to many Catholics gay and straight. They have a built in problem and that is lots of guilt because every blink is judged as it were. There are many gay churches including your faith and they would have your age group and even singles groups, but you had a lover and they had retreats for lovers too. You chose by induced guilt of a 700 year old anti-gay church doctrine to go against your nature and surround yourself with people that hardly even spent a hour looking into the gay issues and the Bible. The only input they could possibly give you is gay is sin and to go to ex-gay ministry to get delivered. Yes, you will feel quite welcomed in a straight "retreat" even if they knew you were gay (but you'd have to say you are trying to change) they would act their faith. They love God and the Lord and so they love you and since you are trying to change you agree with them that gay is sin. They'd love ya. I have been to tons of gatherings Christian are the sweetest things if you don't ruffle their edges. Most things they say they understand because all humans have the same problems and so can relate. But being gay goes beyond that and so if you tell them you are gay and Jesus is not asking you to change and be straight and that gay was not a sin, then they would reject you outright and become the appearance of demon possessed in their behavior towards you who in all respect is a very upstanding citizen in every way except they have the word gay attached to them. Jesus is just as sweet as he can be when two or more are gathered in his name, but he promised that and will not break his promise. That does not make the retreat more godly as less hateful. I guarantee you that If I go into your group of people above and let them know I am gay they would lose their Christian behavior and act evil towards me rejecting the facts of my life. Even though thousands of Christians before them expressed fellowship with me and large numbers confided their awareness of Jesus in me.
How would I fit in at the retreat? I wondered anxiously. Fear of all fears, I have to share a hotel room with three other guys. What if they knew that I was coming away from a homosexual relationship? During my first night in a double bed with one of them, I felt like a mummy wrapped up in a bundle of insecurities. I did not sleep a wink for fear that I might bump into him in my sleep.
^i^ WOW you are a strange one. Most people can figure out it uncomfortable with strangers especially in the same bed with one. I will not be comfortable in bed with anyone except my lover. But facts exist there are times that one must for convenience and conditions change normal routines. I went to a MCC convention and had to sleep in the same bed with a gay friend. Was I ever uncomfortable. Nothing to do with sex, but everything to do with being out of normal conditions. It was simply necessary and economical to share the room, probably like you did. So what does this have to do with gay is sin? You thought they could see gay written all over your body. What were you telling yourself because this part of your story means that you were not normal uncomfortable, but that you were very afraid they'd detect you were gay. What were you afraid that your what ever would become active if you bumped into him? How sick. Why couldn't you just be normal and accept that you are in a strange situation and that the result is your body responds different than it would if you were in your routine things.
But God was incredibly gracious with me that weekend. I had never experienced so much encouragement and excitement without the guilt of sin in my life. However, after the retreat, things got a little rocky and I felt compelled to call my old lover again. As I had done many times in the past, I manipulated him into coming over to my house. Then I fell into my old pattern and we had a sexual encounter that night.
^i^ The previous paragraph you were in a fit of fear (guilt) and now you say without guilt? Of course you'd get encouragement. Now we got something confusing. Your lover did not like you going to the above, but after this you call him you old lover as though a long time had gone by. The way you tell it it was just a weekend. You are in victim set you know you did not manipulate your lover to come back you wanted him back just like any couple that broke up and one or the other wanted the other back. Sometimes it works out other times it does not. This business of trying to make gay sin by defining common problems as being gay problems. Can you tell me why if it is 100 degrees outside that a gay person feels hot so gay is sin. I bet a straight person feel just as hot too. Most of this ex-gay testimony stuff after reading some 30 ex-gay leaders alone has to do with things everyone feels at times in their lives. Most people deal with them just fine and have little side effects. Some people, so far all ex-gay leaders I have read, can't deal with life's problems and need counseling. Unfortunately the counselors they go to compound the problems by surrounding that person with others that never learned to deal with the common problems of life. You tell me how many straight folks that had broken up and later got together to make up and had sex that same night. What's your problem? You are trying to make everything mean gay is sin except the Bible so far.
What would I do now? I had just violated my new life. How would my new pastors respond if I told them about my struggles with homosexuality? I made an appointment with Dennis, the singles' pastor. Sitting in his office I told him the whole truth without mincing any words. I was testing him with my story.
^i^ Testing him. Where did you learn this word? You do not represent most gays. Most gays don't go around planning who to test. Only sick people do this. So you may have a great testimony of a sicko, but not of average gays. Look at these terms, "violated" don't you know where you got them. Did you speak this way before therapy or after therapy? Typical ex-gay testimony go straight for the homophobic pastors for help. Never spending one minute for yourself in seeking the truth. I wonder what your whole truth was and how you told him.
Pastor Dennis looked at me with compassion and made one statement that still stands out to me. "John, you're right. Homosexuality is wrong." He read a biblical passage from Romans, then told me he'd stand beside me and work with me to help me see my way clear of this sin. There was no judgment, no fear, just commitment. That was all I needed at the time. I wanted so much to be accepted in this strange and mysterious world of "straight" men. His words felt like life-giving water to my parched, thirsty soul.
^i^ NO JUDGEMENT? " Homosexuality is wrong" What does this statement mean? Of course a homophobic pastor would have compassion towards a person that comes to him for help to change to straight. How stupid to think otherwise. I bet he would give the time of day to some one who knew God's word and wanted to talk to him step by step, verse by verse on these issues. He'd say he'd call the police or sue or call for bouncers, or revert to horrible ungodly words. Am I guessing? I deal with hundreds of thousands of people in my ministry. How many do you deal with? Romans:
5446 phusikos (foo-see-kos'); from 5449; "physical", i.e. (by implication) instinctive: KJV-- natural. Compare 5591.
5449 phusis (foo'-sis); from 5453; growth (by germination or expansion), i.e. (by implication) natural production (lineal descent); by extension, a genus or sort; figuratively, native disposition, constitution or usuage: KJV-- ([man-]) kind, nature ([-al]).
^i^ 27) Comments asked for by bdavila on Romans ch. 1:26-27 followed by Endtimes comments or if you can't click just go to: http://www.geocities.com/WestHollywood/9647/romans.html Where I answer many questions concerning Romans. Briefly it is not 26-27, but 18-32. 18-25 explains that these are adults that use to love God and were very straight. THEY made gods to worship and so GOD gave them over (to what? The Church assumes gay). This means if you keep in context of your wish that before gays were gay and after they became adults and after they gave up their Christianity, they carved gods out of wood and stone. The Bible often refers to this behavior. You must base Bible on the Bible. How do we know they were having straight sex and loving it as straight adults? Because they were changed remember after they were adults and God is the one that changed them so they could act depraved. Natural and nature is explained above saying that the straight person in 18-25 was straight and that their instincts confirmed it by thoroughly enjoyable sex with the opposite sex. Why do I emphasis this? Because I am making the point that the setting is talking about. In other words these people didn't as it were have a gay thought in their minds until God changed them as it were. They did very much actively participate in sexual relation with the opposite sex and loved it. This love for it guarantees that straights behave straight. So when these straights turned from God and made gods to worship they decided to do sex with the same sex against their straight natures. The seed of 5449 has a guarantor of the 5446. In other words if you are straight your most inwards guts will force you to want sex with the opposite sex. It's a built in thing. You can't hate it because you love it and will pursue it. Straight people need no training or anyone at all they just at the right time will want the opposite sex and will be empowered by 5446. So they straights went against their nature and hence the sin of it. Now a fact. As in every testimony every ex-gay leader attests to having at the bare minimum sexual desires for the same sex and most actually sort out same sex sex. As these testimonies go they further attest to that these desires are very traceable and often to a very young age and everyone well before adulthood. The struggle was fighting against their 5446 (instincts). This struggle continues into their leadership in the ex-gays ministries. The bisexuals adds confusion to those without eyes. But is very simple too. You feel comfortable with either sex. WHO can understand that???? But the bisexual. However these 5446 work in their bisexual nature too. If they divorce after so called becoming straight and married their 5446 will be very much available as they begin dating once again. So applying Rom 1:26-27 to gays is avoiding the context of the discourse. Now is their a format in Paul's day to support straights having same sex sex? Well Paul stood at the statue of the unknown god and declared GOD and His Son. Paul could see the fertility temple down the road from that statue where orgies were taking place. This is solid straight preaching. Study into these temples reveals use of "sodomite":
6945 qadesh (kaw-dashe'); from 6942; a (quasi) sacred person, i.e. (technically) a (male) devotee (by prostitution) to licentious idolatry: KJV-- sodomite, unclean. (from Deut. 23:17)
^i^ There are just tons of history on sodomites and simply saying they are gays is a lie that encompasses 7 of the 13 commonly use anti-gay verses. My huge Bible program with its many study helps always call the remaining 6 verses sodomites too, saying they all talking about gays. If this were true and you find absolutely "sodomites" are temple prostitutes then what of the remaining 6 verses? If over half is not condemning gays, what does the possibility of the remaining not condemning gays either. Finally, the verse 28-32 should convince you gay is not being talked about in this text. There are 600 million gays and so easy to find significant information on non-sexual behavior of gays. What do I mean? Well you say 26-27 is sex. I am saying 28-32 is not sex, but simply evil behavior that results from behaving 26-27. To explain, you can only guess sex is happening unless you watch or are told of it, but 28-32 is seen openly. It is the normal and common behavior visible throughout the rest of the lives of the participants of 26-27. Therefore if 26-27 are gay then general gay non-sex behavior would be seen and it would match 28-32 or be very equivalent. But what do you really see? Gay couples behave like straight couples. Is this evil? If you judge by abusers, promiscuous, adulterers, prostitutes, and every other sexual sin then straights must be condemned to hell. So you don't judge by the common to all sexual sins or all are hopeless. You must judge apples to apples. Gay people have a track record. You can't just say gays are evil now because it is recorded. In the past little was know about most gays and so without good hard facts it was easy to assume the worst. Today this is plain impossible. It is to detailed, to studied, to well known. We have entertainers so loved that even homophobics love them even though they know they are gay. We have so many well know famous people that have proven tested good lives behind them. The pulpits are full of gay pastors in straight churches, though not to many know this fact. Employers often find gays are their best workers. Don't assume I read this some place. I have been told it face to face as well many times where straight bosses tell me their gay employees are their best ones. The governors stand up for gays and change how gays are treated. WHY? Are governors this kind of evil? Or are they evil to suit your wishes. Clinton often has good things to say. Is Clinton evil because he is a democrat or some other reason? Easy to judge a leader as unworthy to have a favorable opinion towards gays because you find cause to judge him evil. I wouldn't go so far as to condemn him and I believe he is very high in the latter in antichrist's kingdom, but lower than Bush's position. I have lots of info on this topic. Still leaders having perhaps a evil goal in our minds does not make them less a leader and their opinion less worthy. The shame comes when some republicans condemns gays based on their Bible upbringing. That is scary for everyone. They are not governing based on their constituents, but their interpretation of the Bible. Funny thing is whose interpretation are they trying to run the country on? Who is right Pentecostals or non-Pentecostals? Are Catholics right? Can the Church be very wrong? Once they believed the world to be flat and would have those that said otherwise kicked out. Bleeding a person was thought to be getting the sickness out and what a fight to teach that you die that way. So how do you judge a person's life? If the care field lost its gay workers it would completely collapse. Most non-sexual gay behavior is a benefit to society undeniably when the record is checked. So gays do not do 18-25 and 26-27 says they had to be straight first and they were not, then 28-32 says they are generally evil and they are actually very good. Lots love God and parents. How can Romans condemn gays?
After that conversation with Dennis, I never fell into homosexual acts again. Within a few weeks, I found a small group of church friends who loved me and wanted me in their lives. Finally I had found the place of belonging I wanted. Clark, Debbie, Dawna, George and others quickly became my life-support system. I told them about my homosexuality and they were stunned at first. But they all stood with me just like my pastor. No one rejected me due to my struggles.
^i^ Is this suppose to mean gay is sin? Remember you weren't really gay, you explained us you were bisexual while using the word gay to describe yourself. "Fell" what a word to use. You don't fall into like there was a hole in the ground. You had plenty of thoughts and decisions to make as you decided to to what was natural for you. Now because you hated yourself you found people that agreed with the reasons you had for hating yourself so now this is happiness? Why would they reject you?? What is so strange about that? You hated yourself and they hated gays and you fit neatly together. Watch how they would respond to a gay Christian and see if they would reject them. Your pastor stood by you because you threw yourself at him hook line and sinker into his homophobics beliefs. Is this suppose to be good?
God knew I needed a purpose for being in the singles' group so He inspired my pastor to ask me to serve the ministry by leading the weekly singles' meetings. After that I became involved as the coordinator of the entire Thursday night ministry. God was giving me a purpose. I had value and gifts and others could gain from my experience.
^i^ See you just thrown into a leadership roll. You have not discussed you Bible training personal or otherwise. Here you week and spineless helped by these and now your victim set personality is leading others. What are you going to do in a crisis. What are you going to do when your 5446 hits?
My friend Clark became a vessel God used to bring about a tremendous amount of healing. We would spend one night each week just talking. Clark was committed to me; he was not afraid of my past or current struggles. He would confide in me about his own past. Clark could talk about anything. He was confident in his masculinity so my homosexual issues did not threaten him.
Hour after hour, God would soak me with relationships. George and I spent time together. George was interested in knowing me. He would ask questions and dig into my life, causing me to process my feelings and thoughts that had built up over the years.
^i^ I must be missing something here. You found a friend, good for you, it about time. 7 lines to a man above and 2 lines to a few women below. When I was in Thailand I had 200 plus friends ( non-sexual if you have dirty thoughts) and when I returned and was surrounded by 85, later a group of 22, earlier, our little group was 5 to 20 last 2 years of the USAF. These were all straights. For many years I always had 7 -15 people coming and going from the gay community. I had many comfortable access to leaders in the gay community too. For 15 years I spent in the straight church circles with my lover at my side. Well, I am glad for you now you can have some friends too.
Debbie, Dawna, and other women were my sisters in the Lord. They liked me and wanted me around. I was not ridiculed or teased like I had earlier in my life. This little group of friends became a source of healing for me.
All was not perfect. I would still go to church and get angry, feeling that I could not seek prayer at the altar for my homosexual desires. I would not dare to talk about this subject up front. I don't know where that feeling came from, because I had never been rejected by anyone in our church over this issue. But for some reason, the enemy had a stronghold on my desire to seek prayer over this issue with people in the church who were unknown to me.
^i^ The enemy had no strong hold just 5446. Besides how often did you hear straights at the alter praying aloud about their sexual lives? I have been down at the alter a million times seeking more of God and never hear anyone praying about sex. The pastor may at time ask for prayer hinting at some need of someone that may be sexual, but very vague. These kinds of prayer if the needs calls for prayer support are done in unsigned prayer requests to the pastor or if you feel comfortable ask him privately. Otherwise go to a comfort friend that you can say anything to. I have such calling me for my support in prayer and I can talk to certain people too. The alter is rated for general audience, didn't you know. Maybe it should not be this way but it just is plain fact. Being gay doesn't change the G rating.
Although I had now attained sexual abstinence, I realized that I did not look forward to a life of celibacy. I wanted to find a special person with whom I could spend my life. I wanted to try marriage again, this time the right way. God was now in my life to show me how and what to do to live out my vision of life-long companionship. A godly marriage was a hope for my future.
^i^ The right way? 50% to 60% of straight Christian marriages end in divorce so how will you find the right way? Will you get God to give you the right way? What makes you better than the 50-60% above? The perfect wife "special person" is more a gay term, straights say special woman. Straight man especially emphasize WOMAN meaning a piece. It isn't easy even for Christian men to think of a woman as a person. Gays on the other hand are forced to repeatedly use words that make people persons and not possessions or objects. Because they either must lie and say their lovers is the opposite sex or use pronouns effectively and person is an easy way to avoid gender. So a very good by product is women become people. Usually straights won't get much opportunity to have repetitions as an invisible helping hand. I wonder who that of that. Did gays thinks of this way? God is teaching gay people how to love everyone without judging them. This doesn't mean accept sinful ways, but able to demonstrate love as God meant it to be. Later this will be put in full action.
After dating several women, one gal began paying special attention to me. Vileen would come to my house to watch me mow the lawn. How romantic! I finally saw her "mating call" and began to get to knew her better. I invited her to spend an evening with me and my two girls (from my first marriage). It went very well and so did our first months of dating. We were growing very close.
^i^ "gal" that is making a woman an object so you can do what you want making it right, just like in war you are trained to call the enemy by names that make them objects. You can kill and mistreat objects. You should have a guilt complex calling a woman a "gal". Now "mating call"? How weird you are, your choice of terms. What's a mating call?. Did it mean "I want a baby, so have sex with me and give me a baby? I think the simple "she seems interested would have done very well here. But your need to appear straight is ruling your terminology.
All of a sudden, bam! An emotionally-paralyzing wall dropped between us. Oh, boy, not again, I thought. I'm hurting someone all over again. I didn't expect this as a Christian. I thought my life was all right now. I told Vileen that I needed help. I had a barrier that scared me and was causing me to shut down with her.
Meanwhile, I met another man who confessed his homosexual struggle. He was not in victory but stumbling often. What would I tell him? I had no answers, other than my own experience. I had now been free from same-sex immorality for almost two years, but did not know anyone else who had come from this background. I had not heard one testimony of freedom from homosexuality.
^i^ 5446 again You are telling about a huge significant part of so far every ex-gay testimony I have heard. That you never have studied the issues. Certainly you knew their was a gay community and resources and in your church someone had to know about the gay community and ex-gays too. Yet, years are going by and you haven't had a clue. This means you haven't tried investing your resources. You depended on others to take care of you. Its your life, they aren't living one second in your body and you must spend your whole life with yourself. You needed to find things out. Most people do find out about themselves and what they like and don't like going through phases and finally sticking to some general perimeters for their lives. I had my eyes and ears open. I came from a background and time that was before the gay community had resources to find easily. I saw the "Free Press" and in that newspaper a gay newspaper was listed and I got it finding a gay bar where I met my first lover of 10 years. I was very interested in truth and read a lots about gay issues and studies and books and learned quite a bit about the gay community. I already knew generally knew the Church hated gays and most straights you would dare tell you were gay to. I wasn't a Christian and so would not care to read the Bible or anything by Christians, they were already prone to hate gays. I didn't care what they thought, they were wrong about there being a god of any kind. Later when I accepted Christ I was very hungry for God's Word and read the Bible many times. At anytime I can tell the Bible story from beginning to end not missing much and I have many times. I also began reading Christian material concerning gays. I read many books, but I also read many Bible studies systems and the originals concerning the gay issues and much more. I knew the facts and the lies. I was gay and when Jimmy Swaggart says gays seduce straights to repopulate the gay community that is a lie. When people say Sodom and Gomorrah was destroyed because of gays that is a lie, gay don't gang rape and murder, straights do. The the ex-gays ministries began and I started writing letters to them in 1985 after reading about them and others that studied them. Most ex-gay ministries disappear or are taken over by straights. I have always kept an eye on these ministries over the years, not with any great efforts just an occasional look see, because I already knew about them and their failure rate and lies they taught. Recently I began again to research in earnest the ex-gay leaders after hearing from ex-gays that try to tell me they have changed in a Christian chat room on-line. They are so pathetic and just could not answer the question I put back to them. There proof is a statement "its sin" and that is all they had to offer. Why is it sin? Is it the 13 verses?
Gen 19:4-5 gang rape, murder, victims would have been angels
Judg 19:22 rarely used gang rape, murder, but victim was opposite sex.
Deut 23:17 don't be a temple prostitute
IKing 14:24 rarely used temple prostitute
IKing 15:12 rarely used temple prostitute
IKing 22:46 rarely used temple prostitute
II Ki 23:7 rarely used temple prostitute
Lev 18:22 acts done in worshipping other gods, not comparing loving, caring , long term relationships, woman is a likely adulteress
Lev 20:13 acts done in worshipping other gods, not comparing loving, caring , long term relationships, woman is a likely adulteress
Rom 1:27-28 Should be 18-32. adults turned from God, God changed them, results visible evil behavior
1 Cor 6:9 call boy and temple prostitute, 1950 original Greek removed, meant masturbation before 1850
1 Tim 1:10 temple prostitute
Jude 1:7 general sexual immorally of Sodom and Gomorrah with no hint of sexual orientation
^i^ And I had heard many ex-gay testimonies. How could you have not. Didn't you this wonderful Christian man ever watch TBN? It seems like most church had an ex-gay testimony flyer around. Was your pastor so dumb or did he want the glory of your deliverance at his own hands?
I finally found out about ex-gay ministries through the national radio show, "Focus on the Family." I wrote to Love In Action, seeking advice on what to tell this other man. They responded with an invitation to come to their ministry and serve in their live-in program. I saw this as God's direct answer to my unspoken desires and dreams. I could find out more about my barriers with Vileen and get some answers for other men needing help. I was so excited, as I had been praying for a full-time ministry since becoming a Christian. God was so faithful to give me a place in His kingdom where I could be of value.
^i^ You should read the material available about "Focus on the Family" I have listened to him for years for a period and seen some of his programs on TV. I still get his newsletters. I don't care what you think of him I am plain out telling you better be careful paying attention to him. I am not telling you this from a gay perspective although he is extremely anti-gay, I am telling you from straight ministries research. So far you have not gave us your Christian background of this church you are going to. Metonia's founder attended the church of the advance people which turned out to be a Reform church. A viewer from my TV program said no body will go to Heaven unless they belonged to the church of the advanced people. I asked the founder of Metonia and he told after I told him all the thing this viewer told me about his church that I'd have to ask his pastor for what his church believes not denying a thing. WHY? Of course changes are exciting especially when you think you will get the answers you want. And look you say that right away you a broken mentally person going to serve and also thinking MEN that need help will give you answers? This is the normal ex-gay process, barely get saved giving little indication of Bible learning . Far from being delivered, just barely saved, never a day studying research concerning gays, whose testimony is full of victim set personally, go into ministry to the same kind of people and hear you want answers from them. Your assuming God is answering you according to your purposes and just how do you know that? Have you been seasoned? , just barely saved, never a day studying research concerning gays, whose testimony is full of victim set personally, go into ministry to the same kind of people and hear you want answers from them. Your assuming God is answering you according to your purposes and just how do you know that? Have you been seasoned? You know freedom, no light of day, no answers, you are a bisexual to boot and now you are a minister? When I began "The Stables Ministries" I was seasoned (lots more to go), I came out of valleys and mountain top experiences, I brought lots of people to Christ, I experienced many answered prayers and was prophesied over many times concerning my calling, I spent years in the Holy Spirit school on sexual issues of people in general, including some years of studying close up the sexual abuse people commit and how they are counseled. I was given statistics that showed 97% of abusers are straight and 3% gay. I had years of comminations with well known TV ministries through TBN and was close to a number of pastors. I also spent years close to gay pastors from gay churches. I did my homework, I know the prophecies concerning the Church in the Last Days, I know the history of the verses used to condemn gays, I know today's facts about gays worldwide. I know some of the history of gay round the world and what they had to do in a world that condemns them, I know the history that before the 13th century no country in Europe had laws against gays, but after the Catholic church standardized with State in their laws that with in a century all those countries had laws against gays. Can you undo these historical facts? Can you tell those trying to change to straight the history of gays. I have a paper back 3 inches thick that has recorded gays in the history of the USA . This is my background when I stated the ministry. Now you read many times I said "I". Let me tell you very clearly it was not "I" but the Lord that taught me and showed me these things. I really don't know how to find thing very well and have to pray and it is amazing how exacting the answer are. You go into a ministry with a host of input from one source, the anti-gay source. You have a wonderful Bible with the answers there, yet you spend no time reading it and studying why you believe it says gay is sin.
During my season with Love In Action, the road has been nothing but uphill. I have realized the real roots of my struggle, broken down many fears and anxieties about life, and gotten married to Vileen.
Marriage. What a whole new project with the Lord! Upon getting married in 1988, I found another chapter of healing that I needed to read. Being in such a close relationship with a woman brought up all my opposite-sex issues. I had pretty much resolved my same-sex issues but these other issues were not something I expected.
^i^ See you are just a wreck of a person. Why do you think this is a testimony common to gays? It is common to ex-gays. If gay were sin like cigarettes or drugs, what follows is a billion testimony that stand the test of time. Where are the ex-gay testimonies of healthy gays? If it were sin these would come to Christ and get delivered like any other sin that involves a difficult time over coming if Jesus doesn't heal them. Yet these other sins like I said are billions strong. Ex-gay are not delivered. Decades later the Exodus' large percentage rate has dwindled down to 1%. Bisexual are thrown in with gays and so surface change for the short term (short term is a decade or more) make the statistics look better and long term there is no follow up by the Church or ex-gay ministries. I have follow up reports by other groups that do indeed track ex-gays on into the decades that follows. I do have a personal friend a straight woman who was a minister in a ex-gay church in SF and she left that to return later to visit. She found 100% failure rate. There were 100 people going through that ministry and she knew them personally and where they lived and she visited everyone of them, they had all left the ex-gay scene as it failed them, most went on to be better Christians.
"Misogyny." What was that? I found out very quickly that it meant "a fear or hatred of women." The hurts, rejections, and difficulties of past relationships with women came to a head with my new wife. Soon I realized that I was feeling a deep anger toward her that I didn't understand. My critical heart toward her was unfounded in anything she had done. She was kind, considerate, loving. She really was not doing anything wrong to merit my response. Where was all this coming from?
^i^ See how "victim set" you are. I don't hate women at all. Some are my best friends. I spend 8 hours a day with a woman co-worker and we are great together and talk about just everything. I tell her can I use her behavior in dating and the trouble she has and so forth on my TV program. God is so good he often send straight people to spend lots of time which have many good general characteristics and good example of certain types of straights so that I have a good base to reflect and compare gay and straight on ordinary dating and other circumstances. This time it is up to 3 years, My last job it was a straight man a single parent with a 4 year old. He confided everything to me about his life in every area. Both knew I was gay. Lots of women hate men because of abuse, but they stay straight. Some gay women say they are gay because of such abuse, however, when observed objectively I don't buy that. If you are straight gay sex is sickening. If you are gay straight is sickening. Many gays accept straight sex because they fought being gay, but their testimonies are always something was missing and often leads them to finally accept themselves, but by this time a wife and kids are involved. So you hated women for what ever reason, at least you can acknowledge most gays are not like you instead of making this the assumption that gay is sin. Just like the gays are looking for the father image, you make it gays hate women because of bad relationships. I am gay. I know what bad relationships are and the pain they bring, but I am not stupid to make me the center of the universe on sexual matters and personalizing any hurtful relationship. Many people do, they need a counselor to work out their problems, but YOU do not need to then go out and proclaim gay is sin because YOU were miserable and sick needing a therapist. I had the privilege to see good and bad straight relationships at length and over decades. I have had the privilege to see some of these go on into new relationships that worked. All relationships have periods that could end up in divorce, but they are worked out, 50 to 60% don't. Gays are the same. If you have a healthy understanding of human relationships then you won't have to become victim set and personalize it as though only you have this problem or hate everything to do with it or some other inappropriate response to a common problem. This won't make a painful relationship less painful, but it will give you understanding to go on to a better tomorrow without condemning everything based on your past.
At a conference for healing past hurts, I found anger and pain in me stemming from my experiences as a two-year-old child. At that age, I spent one year away from my parents due to some family struggles. As a little child I felt so much hate and pain because I perceived that I had been abandoned by my parents. My new home was loving and caring, but where were my mom and dad? My deep anger began a life of disappointments with relationships, especially those involving women.
^i^ Who told you this lie. You weren't around in remembrances and humans have a remarkable healing capability. God built this into to us. You also must deal with statistics. There are 6 billion in the world so you have case histories in abundance. There are so many more people that went through a nearly carbon copy of your early years that are very straight and normal and had adjusted to any abuse from childhood. If some were so strong that it persisted into adulthood they are able to deal with it effective, some need more help. So how do you blame your hate on pre-2 year life? Did your ex-gay counselor tell you this? Do you know where they come up with this? Remember you were a 2 year old. I have a good enough memory to remember some things when I was 3 because as I recalled this to my mom she knew the date of the period I was remembering. It was good memories of playing in a certain place. I bet you would have a hard time remembering things that happened when you were two. A therapist would ask questions about your past which you could know because you were told because you were sent away. Easy to get a date of 2 years old for the therapist. Then its easy to determine it would have not been a fun time having to be sent away. Therapist are very good at manipulating your past to fit a neat scenario of a problem being addressed "you hate women". I am guessing based on the little info I have read about you. The point whether I am right or not is not important, but the issue is you have the means to find things out including validity of an issue. Is gay sin, then why the lies? What you are saying then is you got information to enhance your victim set personality. Do you know what "victim set" means? Find out if you don't.
After so much "spiritual surgery" in the area of same-sex issues, God was finally able to get down to this deeper root. My wife and I realized where my anger originated.
Healing from the causes of homosexuality takes time. A relational difficulty needs a relational solution. The people God has used in my life are too numerous to count. Success, failure, disappointments are all part of the necessary struggles to find a deeper resolution of my homosexual struggles.
^i^ I was healed of food poisoning in seconds, of a month long walking flu of some sorts which became extremely bad on Christmas Eve. Both times very far from a doctor or medicine out in the middle of an Indian reservation. Both times I called of Jesus to heal me with urgency and both times I felt instantly healed. The food poisoning I saw the Holy Spirit pour horizontally from the north following a range of high hills and above them by half its height. When He reach directly east of me about a mile away He poured down like water. Upon reaching my height though a mile away I was suddenly so over whelmed by love pouring into every fabric of my being my eyes were like water falls. This lasted about a minute. I was healed and later that day drove for 15 hours to my home. The flu like sickness I stood up about 1 AM and prayed to Jesus to heal me. Suddenly this love and a very thick oil poured over my head. It felt very very thick and warm. It flowed evenly down my body. A flat line horizontal to the floor through my body where I was sick above that line in this thick oil and sick below the line where there was no feeling of oil. It went as far as my waist. When done, about one minute, I was barely able to know I was sick. Another time while watching Pat Robertson in the 70's he said place your hand where you problem is. I was otherwise healthy, but in southern Calif. With the smog I hurt in my chest when taking a deep breath. This was common for me when I lived there which was all my life then. It was nothing, but I loved Jesus and who knows maybe he will heal that too. To my amazement when I laid my hand on my chest and commanded the smog pain out a feeling of a cloud swelled up in my to a point right in the center then its just raised out of my body. I lived in the area for ten more years and even till this day I have never felt smog pain again. That was more for humorous sake than a real need of healing, but it brought home again the love Jesus had for me. I don't agree at all with this long struggle to be delivered of being gay or drugs or alcohol. HA's 14 steps is ridiculous and is a mockery of alcoholics anonymous. HA's case the founder (first of Quest) was charged with as many counts of sex with clients as he had years as president of the organization. 13 or 14 years. He was fired, but HA kept his principles. Alcoholics better organized and does some good, still is not the fate Christians should go through. I drank like crazy from 12th grade on. Maybe I didn't have a problem, it never got in the way of any thing. But looking back it certainly could have. I put many thousands of mile drunk at the wheel. It was good times with a buddy and then the USAF was one big party. 27 days before I accept Jesus I made a News Years resolution not to drink again. I did this once before and went several months, but had no real purpose to stop and beside it was because I did not want the hang overs, the same that New Years Eve. However, accepting Jesus was quite an experience for me. Being chief atheist, the in one seconds time, believe with out question every Word of God. I had a reason now. I never drank again. I took what I though was the least problem drugs a couple of times thinking it would never become a problem and I rather doubt it would have because of my pre-existing philosophy and it was experimental any way. Of course drugs don't care how you think about them they often take control, but having met Jesus I never needed to find that out the hard way. When I say I drank, I don't mean one or two beers. It was to get very drunk and have fun. We never had a problem and never ended up in anything except great memories of a happy go lucky youth and young adulthood. I would never give approval to anyone to drink because I was lucky. But my point is Jesus changed that instantly. Another, grave problem which I seem to have no choice on lasted awhile till one day Jesus gave me reason and hope to choose how to respond to this problem. Nearly 18 or more years have gone by with out making a bad choice on this issue. Jesus can help, this I know. But he is not asking the gay person to change and be straight, the Church is though and its wrong. Bisexuals may feel so badly and surround themselves with people to live the straight side of your bisexuality, but this does not give you the right to tell other gay is sin. Ex-gay ministries has a set up plan and this is how it works. Gays live celibate lives and bisexuals live the straight side of the bisexuality. What does the Bible say about telling people to live celibate?
1 Tim 4:3 They forbid people to marry and order them to abstain from certain foods, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and who know the truth. (NIV)
1 Cor 7:5 Do not deprive each other except by mutual consent and for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer. Then come together again so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self-control. (NIV)
^i^ The Church forbids gay to marry and even with married folk very close to God, they are urged not to stop sex with each other for to long a period of time or satan will temp you. Yet, ex-gay ministries favorite rule is abstain. Why is it so hard? These wonderful married Christians having sex often tell others not to have sex? There is much more here than a simple message to abstain. That is why it is so difficult to deal with sex out of marriage. The Christian teachers (pastors, and other ministers) haven't a clue what they are dealing with. Focus on the family for instance, James never knew a second what its like to date, his testimony is God gave him a wife right after high school, a girl he met in high and the very first girl too. Great for him, but that just says he knows nothing of what most of the human race goes through except by college and counseling others. He knows nothing about not being married and so applies the scriptures a the letter of the law that kills. There is a school that qualifies a person to preach on sex and sexuality and that is the Holy Spirit school. It last longer than most colleges would ever teach on the subject and you get the benefits all the special effects real life adds. Just like the Holy Spirit lesson on fear. You can't learn on your own or in college or even experiencing fear out of this school. If Jesus says he wants to take you to the Holy Spirit school and he ask you if you will go you can accept or decline with no consequences and your general life has been already close to him. Accepting a lesson in the Holy Spirit school is not anything like college and you better understand when you accept that its going to be very real and personal and you won't be the same when you come out of it. If gay were sin, yes, it would take time for many, but as other sins which there are many, you would have absolute examples in significant numbers to easily show instant deliveries. Murderers stop, druggies stop, smokers stop, mobsters stop, wife beaters stop, thieves stop, occultism stops, drinking stops, and the list would go on and on and these would be in large numbers of complete and instant deliveries. Then you have could be larger numbers in some cases that take a period of time to come out of, but you do have sufficient numbers through out time to show complete deliverance of the sin. What's more these all have unanimous agreement in every field that it is sin and harmful. Now why is being gay different? Why is it getting ever closer to 50% in both camps. Why so many people support gays from very important positions? Why is churches ever growing in support of gays? Why are straights getting this complete and instant deliverance from thinking gay is sin. Why do gays think it is not wrong or harmful, and why does so many mental professionals back this up with long term research? Why is there no instant deliveries? Why does long term research see such failures in becoming straight. There are so many discrepancies in the gay is sin theory? Why is it so hard to figure out this is not following a sin classification?
Where am I today? I have a loving, committed marriage. I have a restored relationship with my parents. I feel of great value to the Lord and to His work. I have a sense of belonging, personhood and relationship with others. I am not totally healed from homosexuality. It is part of my emotional, physical and spiritual history. It will not be erased as though it did not exist. I still struggle at times, envying a guy who is better looking than I am. I still shut down with my wife at times. I periodically have sexual thoughts regarding men.
^i^ Bisexual have no problem loving the opposite sex. Christians usually have committed relationships whether gay or straight. Most gay feels good about themselves to the extent that straights do. Many straight are far from any kind of security even as Christians. My parents never rejected me as many gays' parents. Parents often seek out independently the Bible truth concerning gays and find the same results that gay is not sin. Other parent maintain a death sentence on their children. As preached nearly 28 million parents in the USA (56 million people) are told to reject and disown their gay children who are going to hell. Who is destroying families? Gays or pastors? 5446 is keeping your nature in the forefront. You are trying to go against your nature as a bisexual. If you want to live your straight side do it you are a bisexual fine and dandy. Your frustration comes from hating the other side of you. You are living in a loving caring relationship, just love it without condemning all gays and hating your gay side. Look at all the straights that are married. They flock to watch teen pageants and Miss Universe and get the swim suit editions. They are admiring a beautiful female, they have a legal way of gocking at women young or adult. They don't cheat on their wives they just love women (likewise women gocking at men). You aren't going to change your nature, you are just choosing the straight side of it. Stay faithful like most marriages and so what if you gock you are not going to run out and have sex with every cute man that walks by, that stupid, but a WOW once in a while Jesus could care less. Of course there is temptation why do you think so many cheat? Why do pastors find that often they will take another person in private chambers while counseling an attractive to them person. Pastors that don't watch out we sometimes read about. It sure does not make straight sin, but point out our sin nature. We can choose not to have sex with someone, but we can not choose not to be attracted to someone. Sorry there are way to many gorgeous people in the world. It is suppose to be this way. Your job is to love the one your with while you with them. Should you divorce 50-60% say that's can happen, you go on with life after your mourning period. The letter says you commit adultery, but the Church just exempts remarriage in almost all cases. Jesus will be with you and help you through those times. Please, don't be so victim set to add this stupid statement that you are so egotistic about your beauty that you are jealous if someone is prettier than you. That has nothing to do with being gay. If he is cute and you are attracted OK, but to be an idiot and say your feel low self esteem if some one is better looking than you has no baring on the gay issue just your are a sick person needing a counselor like the testimonies of all the ex-gay leaders I have read so far (around 35 probably more like 40 of them).
What is victory? In my opinion, victory is being able to partake of the fruit of the land that God offers in obedience to His Word. I no longer see homosexuality as an option or desire for my life. I want nothing to do with it. I embrace my God-given relationships too much to destroy them. I embrace my wife and marriage too much to lose it to some momentary empty pleasure. I have developed a cherished relationship with God that I want nothing to destroy.
^i^ Victory is "the truth will set you free" you are not set free and do not have victory yet as we read in the last part of your testimony. Obedience? The first 4 Commandments explains Jesus' first Command on love God, the last 6 Commandments explains Jesus' 2nd Command. This is obedience. We can't hardly love God:
Exod 20:10 but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your manservant or maidservant, nor your animals, nor the alien within your gates. (NIV)
^i^ The Church for 2000 years is not obeying God on the 4th Commandment. It did not go away when Jesus died and rose. And the Church did not have authority to change it to Sunday. You are not loving God if you disobey him. This is a forever Command. The Lord's Day and the Sabbath Day are not the same day. The Sabbath is very significant and will have to be dealt with and it will be very soon. 144,000 people will soon begin their ministry and teach us how to observe the Sabbath. All I know is that it isn't as simple as suddenly changing Sunday worship to Saturday. But it will be specifically taught and you will have to obey it in those soon coming days. Obedience is not refraining from being gay. Gays do otherwise (beside the mess the Church put us all in over the Sabbath) obey God just like any straight Christian. You may want nothing to do with being gay (bisexual) but your 5446 will see to it that you never forget it. My impression is that the day will come you 5446 will force you to re-think the gay issue. It will cause a big problem in your marriage and if kids comes along that will enhance the problem considerably. Bob Davies actually may have never been gay, he never had sex with a man and never really seem to have a huge desire for men as it were, but he did have sex with women and when he met his current wife he had quite the hots for her. He had nothing to indicate he was a real gays person and he now head Exodus where the original founders of course are not preaching they were very wrong to have started that ministry as gay is not sin. L. I. F. E. had a man give his testimony (he was their pet ex-gay) here in Seattle. He said what you just said. ". I no longer see homosexuality as an option or desire for my life. I want nothing to do with it." He also said he had gotten a strong handle on it after 6 years ( 4 - 5 years longer than most ex-gays) and was feeling more like a straight person finally. I walked up to him during break and introduced myself and handed him a blown up of the Hebrew for the word "sodomite" and asked him to watch my TV program and I was very polite to him. He turned into a stiff board and like a robot ran out of the room. What do you tell ex-gays at Love in Action anyway. What would you do if I walked up to you to ask you some questions? By the way the pastor wife their told me "if the word of God itself was against what they were teaching it would not be allowed there" The pastor came to me looking very violent with the ex-gay leader (who was straight) when they got to me the were yelling thing at me "what do I think of anal intercourse". Hey I am nobody, just little old me and the first time in public too. I could do almost nothing, but the Holy Spirit and I already knew what to do in this circumstance and I though this was such a time, so I held out my arms and they were instantly drawn into my embrace and I began praying in tongues. This caused an instant change in their attitudes towards me. The ex-gay leader faded away and the church authority (pastor) became center stage as it should. He changed so much and treated me with respect inviting me to return to finish my TV program on ex-gays. Now you say a moment of empty pleasure well why do you make such a statement over this? If you mean cheating on your wife again has no baring on gays. But if you say acting out your gay side of your bisexuality while single and date a man like any straight would date, then what is the momentary pleasure? I am now in a 7 year relationship. My first sex was with my first lover which lasted 10 years. What momentary pleasure are you speaking of? I also would be wrong to cheat on my lover for a momentary pleasure. So why bring up in your testimony relating to your trying to be straight with momentary pleasures. Yes, Jimmy Swaggart had some bouts with momentary pleasures. In fact more than once. Even last year he was stopped in a red light district where he was seen driving back and forth, his excuse is he wanted to look at a TV antenna he owned for his ministry. Fact it was sold years before. He said he wanted to see if the lawn was mowed as his habit of once in 5 years he drives over to check that. Yes, this could destroy a well know ministry. The acts with prostitutes God can use to heal Jimmy and make his walk better, because it is his relationship with God that matters not with people. People go to prostitutes for many reasons and people are kinky too, this in itself won't hurt Jimmy in the slightest with Jesus, but the lies will. You are trying to related common sexual sins of yours to make gay sin. When gays go to prostitutes or are promiscuous or cheat on their lovers or abuse them, then they have common problems that straights have that need help. But this does not make gay sin, just like it does not make straight sin. You make gay sin from a 700 year old anti-gay Church doctrine. Truth will set you free. I independently researched the gay issue not wanting to depend on bias' of straight or gays. When I came to Christ there was just no way I was going to go to the gay Churches to get their interpretations of the Bible and I very well knew the Church simply hated gays with a fever. (stating you love someone doesn't turn hate into love. Behavior states love or hate). I lived in Christian book stores almost reading everything I could from every angle and the original languages. I got many many library book from author on the other side. The anti-gay information proved in itself "gay was not sin". There just is so much info in Christian book store that the answer comes out gay is not sin by the homophobes own work. I answered most of the issues in straight homophobic research material. You see even those that believe gay is sin with a passion still love Jesus and seek truth and so they will have the truth in their works. Their lies about gays are ever so prevalent. That should give you a clue fairly quickly that something is wrong with anti-gay preaching. I also read gay researchers and straight's who found gay not to be sin. I also went on to talked to more than 300,000 which 75% were ant-gay just from my TV viewers in a 3 year period. I have done a lot more than this too. What I read from you is you have done nothing except go directly to a homophobic pastor and hung out with homophobic Christians then join an ex-gay ministry. You call yourself a Christian seeking the truth of God? You need to upgrade your idea of VICTORY in Jesus. Victory is not making your life to stand out against perfectly innocent people because you were a very sick man mentally. Why don't you stand out as a shinning light within the ex-gay community and spend some years searching the gay community. If gay is sin you should find GOD word stands firm, if gay is not sin then what are you doing with your life now? There is a high price to pay saying gay is sin. They time is about here when Jesus will allow himself to answer the prayers of God's gay children. He has been longsuffering because he set a time to respond and that time starts with the throwing down of the censer. He will then sanctify himself in your sight in the gay people you are persecuting by saying they are living in sin and must change and go against their nature like you are fighting your nature.
There is hope, victory, and true love in Christ. John Smid has been director of Love In Action since 1990.
^i^ And so we end with you a ex-gay leader with the same testimony as all the ex-gay leaders. You come out a a victim set personality needing help and hating yourself. You are a bisexual with a miserable life full of guilt, you never went to any gay counselor to hear the other side of the story, but went direct as a very weak Christian to a homophobic pastor then joined a homophobic group never indicating getting background in the word of God and still we don't know your church background. Is it Catholic, or Baptist, or Reform, is it Pentecostal, 7th Day Adventist, or what. This makes a difference too. Many churches quickly send their people that want to become straight to church background so far out of their own it makes little since. By 1990 the research was well established concerning ex-gays. Information easily obtainable on both sides. Talk shows well establish and frequent showing that hate side of anti-gay and the love side of pro-gay. Over and over again. Voting growing ever closer and sometimes crossing over the 50% supportive of gay issues. And yet, look here is another ex-gay leader refusing to let truth reign hid ministry. Telling his clients the same lies about gays. Relying on sick people to be examples of the gay community with only their own sick past to use for reference. The gay community is a vast world just like the straight community. Lifestyles are just as varied. To say the gay life style is a lie. There is no gay life style, but they are many life styles and they coincide with straight life styles. Let not judge 600 million based on a few with very sick pasts. You ex-gay leader should stand up showing deliverance from your victim set personality flaws to help the sick and confused people that come to you. How can you tell your clients a one sided story. Let the other side speak for them selves. Jesus is so good and he never leaves God's gay children. They have testimony, many will have hurt in them, but without victim set, many have much pain, many straight do too. Why should the Church tell gays such lies? Gays also have wonderful full lives, they have over come the hate of the Church and forgives their haters. I am nearly 51 and nearly 24 in Christ Jesus and full of the Holy Spirit from the beginning. You not I have to give account of my life and my walk because it counterdicts what you wish was true about gays.
^i^ You can comment to John S. below:
John Smid. Director Love In Action, PO Box
753307, Memphis, TN 38175-3307
The Stables Ministries Home of Gays For Jesus TV Programs
Voice: 206-338-4297(gays) text: 425-321-5987 correspondence: firstname.lastname@example.org