Gays For Jesus
Gays are like straights. You can find every kind of person with every kind of likes and dislikes and personalities.
There is a difference between homosexuality and being gay.
(10/12/2007) Duncan, this is what I think about your story
My testimony is very short. Once I was gay, and now I am not. It's with what happened between that the story lies.
^i^ My testimony is long because God is so Good. The song goes "I once was lost and now I saved" and it works for everyone. Note: I intend to mock your testimony a little or a lot, but only to make a point.
There is a difference between homosexuality and being gay. When someone struggles with homosexual feelings, that does not make them gay. To have homosexual feelings, and to acknowledge them is one thing, but to invest your entire identity into your sexual preference, is another. That is what being gay is. It is everything you are. It colours the way you relate to society, because the traditional way that things are put together, with men and women, and children and so forth, is everything that you are not, and so you react against them.
^i^ I wonder where you got your philosophy from? If you feel like you are gay you are not gay unless you invest in it you are? This is deep traditions of men is right? Whose traditions? The Church told the American Indian it was a sin to run around naked though it was very traditional for the Indians in that climate. Different societies through out history believed differently about gays. Some honored them. So your traditional values belong to your small world. You base you think this on the Bible. That is why you say this here. The Bible does not condemn gays and so far you haven't shown it based on traditions. The facts are 10% has always been gay and if you'd like I will get into that to.
Because of your homosexual feelings, you react badly to men in authority, since they threaten your unformed sense of masculinity, and so you are rebellious. When homosexuality was not such an accepted, even desirable way of life as it is today, your sexual struggle could drive you to be secretive and self destructive, or if you took the "gay" route, you would be openly aggressive, and it is the last option that I took.
^i^ This is a story about what gay is? How did you arrive at this? I am almost 51 years old (now 67 as I am editing this years later). Gays are like straights. You can find every kind of person with every kind of likes and dislikes and personalities. Gays have been secretive because 700 years ago the Church (Catholics) started an anti-gay doctrine. This was in conjunction with standardizing state law with Church law. A large number of people left to Protestant churches. But by the 14th century nearly all countries made laws against gays. Prior to this anti-gay doctrine no country had laws against gays. This forced gays to conceal who they were. Jewish people did this in Germany to. Is just being Jewish sin? This same Catholic's that made the anti-gay doctrine also classified Jews as evil as gays as one of their 3 worst groups of people in the world. What does the Bible says about non-Jews treatment of Jews as to what will happen to them. The Protestant churches adopted this anti-gay doctrine when in the next couple of centuries. Gays were accepted for a time in these break away churches. The destructive type gay you refer to is just plain sick gays needing a therapist like any sick straight. Look here what you are saying if you take the gay route you'd be openly aggressive? ag·gres·sive
1.Inclined to behave in a hostile fashion.
2.Assertive, bold, and enterprising: an aggressive young executive.
3.Intense or harsh, as in color.
4.Fast growing; tending to spread quickly: an aggressive tumor.
- ag·gres¹sive·ly adverb
- ag·gres¹sive·ness noun
The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Third Edition copyright © 1992 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Electronic version
^i^ What part of aggressive do you mean? Very few gays are hostile as #1, many may be #2, #3 can't see it at all, #4 there is 10% in the past present and future. The reason we see more activity today is God is moving amongst them like he did with Blacks, and women movements to take the Church's power from controlling them away. To re-read history the very same phrases were used when these other groups began to demand their just respect and dignity.
Note: Duncan starts little questionnaires here. Originally you could put a check I a box before the line. I erased them out, but still wanted to present his antics.
I see what you mean, and I agree
You obviously don't know anything about what it means to be gay
Man, do you need serious help!
Tick here if none of the above apply to you
^i^ Your little mini-questionnaires simply distracts from your testimony like you want more control over readers.
I began to be confused about my sexuality at the age of 18. Until then I had had relationships with girls except that they had never culminated in sex.It was not that I was unattracted to girls, or that I found myself unable to perform heterosexually, but God had, by his grace protected me from that.
^i^ We now are not hearing the testimony of a ex-gay person, but that of a bisexual. This is a HUGH HUGH different animal than gay people. Bisexual can easily live as a straight person. My summary (long version will take pages) is there is 50% to 60% divorce rate in the USA which applies equally to Christians. After my research into the ex-gays and study of others that have spent a long time researching ex-gays, I state that should these fake gays, because they often call themselves gay, but are bisexuals, marry the opposite sex, that they will not change that fact that they are bisexual and should they divorce as the statistics indicates, they have a good chance their next lover will be same sex or at least these desires will enter into to play strongly while searching for a new partner. About the most pathetic kinds of Christian counselor is one that go out to help others in trouble in something they never experienced. Meaning, someone helping people that are sexually active and single and straight and Christian to not do that any more. While they say by God's grace I never had sex until I met my wife. Hey if we are in Heaven that's great, but we aren't there yet. Some sort of reality checks need to be in place before one preaches against something he can't understand except from books. To really talk about sexual matter you really need to go to the Holy Spirit School on sexuality. This school is tough and you don't choose to go. When you get through enough of it you can then teach on it. Anybody else just flat out condemns and that is wrong.
I have always known I was Gay
I have always been heterosexual
I only found out I was gay as an adult
I think your picture is really ugly!!!!! May I copy it to scare away the flies?
^i^ How childish. . . . Your are condemning 600 million gays and you try to make a joke about your face.
In retrospect, I realize now that I had always been in love with my best friend, having had unusual reactions to close contact with other boys. I remember once, in a friendly tussle I got an erection which led to a great deal of embarrassment.
^i^ At least you could have figured out later in life boy's thingy gets that way for every kind of reason while growing up. Touching others or being close your ding dong is doing its thing while you are doing yours figuring out who you are sexually. Most boys goes on to be quite straight. That just simply a normal reaction. Don't you watch documentaries? Or learn anything in school? Or curious about your body so read about it and what makes it tick. Or ask questions? Yes, it can be embarrassing, duh. . . .
I was always smaller than other boys and never enjoyed the things they enjoyed. I used to knit and crochet and play with dolls and avoided the normal boyish activities, much preferring something creative or studious. I was not your typical "weed", in that I was extremely aggressive and would use my (considerable) vocabulary to flatten anyone and if that didn't work, I was prepared to resort to violence.
^i^ Well I did not care for dolls at all. I had a fire truck, hiked mountains with my same age cousin before I was 8, aways out on our street with the other neighborhood kids plays sports. I might have been last chosen, but the PE teams in any sport I was on would win mostly because I made the points. I was into boy games not girl games at all. I loved reading science fiction books. Tons of them. Ah a hint for above aggressive meaning "violent nature" oh you think if you act out being gay you are aggressive? I was never prepared for violence. I was plenty strong enough, but completely did not believe in it and still don't. Twice I finally got to a point to fight someone. It seemed so wasted and stupid. I won, but the what was even more stupid they acted like they were my friends afterwards. Well you sure are not using your (considerable) vocabulary in you testimony.
At school I did well but the one thing that did not go well for me was my involvement in sport. I felt inferior to my friends who all seemed so sure of themselves. I hated the whole gung-ho attitude that seemed to accompany rugby and cricket, but because I was in an Afrikaans school, I was forced to participate. Privately I rather pursued every creative and gentle alternative that I could lay my hands on. I read, knitted, crocheted, painted, wrote, sang etc. so denying a whole athletic part of me that was as valid as the talent which I displayed for the arts.
^i^ Society teaches us today be butch to be a man and a man looks like the Marlboro man. It could make you feel bad about yourself although I sure never met any boys ever that like what you liked as your telling it. Transvestites and transsexuals, and transgender have told me they like girl things. Denying the athletic part of you? That's a society thing full of Church traditions.
I also used to play with dolls etc. (if gay / homosexual tendencies)
/ cars etc. (if lesbian / have those tendencies)
I didn't have that experience
I actually believed/believe that I am a member of the opposite gender
I am actually only visiting this planet, and don't know what you are talking about!
^i^ This mini-questionnaire is getting through to me that you must still have a real problem with yourself and I still have't gotten that what other feel has anything to do with your testimony. A testimony is about you not about how the readers feel or what they are.
My lack of fathering as a child left me unaffirmed as a man. All that my father represented to me was abhorrent to me. He was the traditional macho man, who thought first of himself and his comfort and interest, and then of others, if at all. I was surrounded by the results of my father's immorality even before birth. He started messing around long before I was born. When my parents were finally divorced when I was 9, the damage was already done. I had hardly known my father, and the only time that he ever acknowledged me was when he could show me off. I suffered from a deep sense of shame and rejection.
^i^ So you are gay because you are looking for your father image? I am running into this a lot around ex-gay ministries. Funny not many gay people seem to have your problem. Let me tell you something there are people that are sick because the developed through trauma of some sort growing up. There is a need for counseling for these people. Sexual orientation is not a criteria to become disoriented towards your mother or father as you grow up and go look for a mate. If you happen to be gay you will look for this mostly likely in another man if you are a man. Same with a gay woman. If you are straight the same applies except you will look for the parent in the opposite sex. This actually is common, but most people gay or straight or whether they experienced trauma being gay or straight growing up never go on to look for their mother or father in marriage.
I think my homosexuality stems from my bad childhood
My parents did not have an effect on my homosexuality
I had a good childhood and I'm still gay...so much for your theory!
How dare you presume I'm homosexual!
^i^ What is your point Duncan? We get these little questions Your hang up is you always wanted to be a teacher so you give readers these little test every couple of sentences? Or did you learn a trick with . html's and you are going over board with it?
When I finally found myself participating in homosexual activity I felt very much at home. I initiated it and pursued from then on. I had some pangs of conscience which I tried to subdue through praying about it once or twice but, since it didn't seem to have any effect, and I was enjoying myself too much, I soon abandoned it along with the girlfriend I had at the time.
^i^ "pangs of conscience". . . Do you know what this is? Let me explain it to you. You live in a society that has been influenced by the Church for so long ( lot of good with the Church, but also lots of incredible ungodly guilt) and it has made everything out of the missionary position with your spouse a sin. You should read what varieties of sex Levite Priest can do with their spouse. If the Church knew you'd be in hell for sure. Guilt trips is not the same as Holy Spirit conviction. I have listened in person to many ex-gays give a brief testimony at special meeting held at churches and they always get a sparkle in their eyes when they tell about past love as a gay person. Its like they are experiencing it and the future may never bring such sparkle again for them. I usually won't make the first move. God is so good he made life to take care of the differences in us all. You make the initial pass, while the pass has to be made to me. You make like doing it that way, but I don't. This is also how straight dating works, but with added guilt on the man for if he would rathe a girl ask him he must never allow that and a girl though aches to ask can never do that because of rules that God did not make. You abandoned praying that God deliver you? Could it be Jesus is not asking the gay person to change and be straight? At this time the gay side of your bisexuality was stranger, so what. . . .
(You may tick more than one)
I immediately felt at home and free
I had some initial pangs of conscience
I had no pangs of conscience
I hated myself for doing it and wanting to
^i^ I don't want to click at all. You just want input validation of yourself don't you?
There started twelve years during which I turned my back on God altogether, had a successful five-year relationship, was instrumental (in a very small way, and during the very early years) in bringing about the entrenchment of gay rights in South Africa. During this time I also pursued a relatively successful career in the entertainment industry in S.A.
^i^ I turned my back on God because I could not hit the head of a nail with a hammer when I was 5 years old. Jesus never left me during those next 22 years I called myself an atheist. How many people are gay because they did this. How many are still straight for turning their backs of God at a young age? Yes, it was tough for you and it seem like God didn't here you, but you had not met Jesus at least you never told us you were a Christian. You just said you prayed. A real Christian knows they are a Christian and can pinpoint a date and time. Even if they can't remember they can remember the general conditions of their salvation. Those that call themselves Christians because of family or they go to church doesn't make them Christian. So you aren't making a point that gay is sin somehow here. You are making a very clear point that you were quite confused and weren't getting answers, but you weren't even really looking either. So you are telling the readers you saw good in the gay community and rejected it later and became anti-gay for Jesus? Looks like you let go and let God to me though you called it turning your back on God. Don't you know man turns his back on God. God does not turn his back on his children. Apparently we will see you come back to Christ later. While you forgot God it looks like God worked in your life without any of your guilt getting in the way and you accomplished good things.
Homosexuality was instrumental in my turning my back on God
I was never interested in God
I don't see the problem with acting out homosexually and serving God
^i^ Again? I was an atheist until I was 27 and accepted Christ including Baptism in the Holy Spirit. Almost 24 more years has gone by and I only get closer to God each day.
It was not strange that I found myself drawn to other men when I entered university at the age of 18. I had no concept of my own masculinity, and so I looked for it elsewhere. Leanne Payne writes about homosexuality as a cannibal compulsion. Cannibals consume other humans because they want to imbibe the attractive attributes of individuals. So you would eat someone who was particularly brave or intelligent, or who affirmed your sense of being wanted by a man, or who looked particularly masculine, etc.
^i^ Now you really are becoming sick. How you can apply something to gays so out of context of the tribes that ate people. Their were heavy religious attachment to eating these people they also ate their enemies. Logically yes gaining their strength but also the attributes of the reason they went to war with them. It is just to disgusting to hear you use this word in relationship to love.
I have never heard of this before but it makes sense to me
You've gotta be kidding!
I suppose you're going to tell me you think lobotomies are a good psychological practise?
^i^ In college I had a strange professor in a Marriage and Family course I took. He found a book for the class for the work book of the course that semester. He said, it's a good book, but you will have to also see this little perspective from a alien (as in space) in a 2 or 3 sentence on each page. He meant it too. This is what you sound like with your little questionnaires.
So at 18 I embarked on a search for the Father which would lead me through several "long-term" relationships, one of which lasted 5 years. Because of my youth and energy, I was relatively popular, and when I left varsity to embark on a successful career in singing on-stage, first in opera and later in musical theatre, I was finally free. Free to find myself affirmed for who I "was". Free to pursue the fulfilment of my unrequited love for my father. Of course, since it is impossible for one gay man to offer another what he does not have, I soon started smoking dope in an effort to cope with the tensions that arose. Thus started a cycle that lasted all in all, twelve years.
^i^ I talked with Doug Houck of Metonia ex-gay ministry. You must know him because Exodus has a main headquarters at the same address in Seattle. I talked to Doug at length and he told me about finding father. Sorry that is your sickness and his and some other ex-gay leaders, but it is not normal in the gay community at all. Father attachment is a cop out in the ex-gay ministries. When will you in the ex-gay field ever do proper evaluations? 600 million gays and you never think to use a control group to verify your father theory? So blind. Seems like you had a successful life any Christian would dream of. God taking such good care of you, but you being blind held on tightly to what your church taught and you believed them rather than God. You assume your life was successful probably because satan was leading you astray though up till now you have not mentioned satan, but lots of other ex-gay leaders do. Now here is a real good comparison that gay is sin. It leads to drugs. Hey you looked for drugs. If you want to see them you will. I went to a gay bar every night almost for eight years. I never drank a drop of alcohol and I almost never saw anything to do with drugs. Popers were a fad for a few years and a few did them and they stank, but that was the most I saw. Others told me they saw drug dealing every night. They saw abuse and many low life things. Funny, most everyone I met there really never saw it either. Hmmm. . . I guess you liked hanging out with these types. When I see these types I don't get involved or hang out with them. Even before I got saved my lover and I(a ten year relationship) went dancing every weekend almost and we never saw drugs either. WHY? Duncan you seem to have, probably still do have a "victim set" personality. This is a mind set when you don't seem to have options on how to choose what to do in circumstances and think you only have the choice to stay in hurtful hopelessness. Stephen Black's life was seemingly completely "victim set". He made himself a victim of everything. When you get out of this mess you find you have always had many choices and control. You don't have to live in victim set. I don't much like therapist because a great deal of their therapy is incorrect and they have no concern to collaborate with each other and make up so many conditions. What's worse is the Church uses these therapists instead of Christ's teaching and the Holy Spirit directing and healing. Ex-gays nearly 100% of their operation is based in therapy's behavior modification techniques. And so what you were on drugs anyway, percentage wise more straights are on drugs so it a drug problem not a gay problem. You are really hard to understand, its as though you insinuate being gay made you fall into these things. Concerning leaving varsity. . . .
A little confusion: var·si·ty Are you British and meant you finished college? #2 below? You said you hated sports?
var·si·ty (vär¹sî-tê) noun
1. The principal team representing a university, college, or school in sports, games, or other competitions.
2. Chiefly British. A university.
Often used to modify another noun: varsity football; a varsity letter.
[Alteration of university.]
The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Third Edition copyright © 1992 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Electronic version licensed from INSO Corporation; further reproduction and distribution restricted in accordance with the Copyright Law of the United States. All rights reserved.
I am also addicted to substances
I am not addicted to substances
What's wrong with using drugs?
^i^ Again this little game.
There is an aspect of my life that I have only briefly referred to, and that is the spiritual. May father was a freemason, and as such, Satan had free reign in our family. When I gave my life to the Lord in the 6th grade, Satan went all out reclaim me for himself, and he almost succeeded. Shortly after being filled by the Spirit in a Pentecostal meeting, and beginning to attend an Assemblies of God church, I was whisked away into a strange situation (which I won't go into here, for the sake of some of my family members) because my mother didn't have the financial resources to keep me. I had some brushes with the Lord during my school career, but nothing managed to stick, and I finally turned my back on the Lord, when he apparently didn't want to help me when I found myself attracted to men at varsity.
^i^ I knew satan would get mentioned. For a good dose of what Masons means and what it did to history read William T. Still's "New World Order" a library book. It goes into the 5000 years history of this group. There go is to re-establish the Day's of Noah. They have penetrated the Church in the USA 80 years ago especially the Sunday schools. Masons did not make you gay. Two groups of Masons York Rite and Scottish Rite one is satanism the other Luciferism. Today's power name is The Counsel on Foreign Relations, Tri-Latteral Commission, Builderbergs. Clinton is a member of the first two and was recently promoted to the last where Bush is a leader. Jack Kemp is a 33rd Masons. So at six your gat saved and baptized in the Holy Spirit and something strange happened to you? Your mother left you? You just brushed through some very important stuff didn't you. We are left standing with no way to figure out a few things. Being baptized in the Holy Spirit has some impact apparently you just let is slid away.? You think this is a common child hood of pre-gays? God never ever left you and you proved it many times above. You just did not pay attention to God's work in your life and gave credit elsewhere. I guess you mean varsity as a college, OK. You did not find yourself attracted to men you aready were and also to women you told us this remember?
There is a lot of occult spirituality in our family, and now I see the
How come you see a link between homosexuality and the Occult?
Don't tell me you think the occult is satanistic?
^i^ There is no link to be found to gay life it is common to everyone to at sometime in their life to dabble in the occult. Most turn out straight. What questions rather what answer are you looking for and why don't you just ask, just maybe a reader could flat out give you the answers you are looking for.
When my 5-year relationship came to an end in 1989, I had been through 10 years of calling myself an atheist. I started dabbling in the occult, and found myself attracted to the scriptures while performing the role of Jesus in "Godspell". Not long after I capitulated. One morning I found myself calling Jesus "Lord" again, and my life changed. I knew what the Bible said about homosexuality, and without further ado I submitted the change in sexuality, if it was to happen, to Jesus.
^i^ Finally you are getting to the point. Yes lots of Christians go a round about way to return to Jesus. In all of the above I don't see at any time that you ever went to check out what the Bible says about gays. What I mean is the other side of the story not just the homophobic side. 700 years the Church has been condemning gays. In most church groups the information only is negative and never ever goes into the 700 year history of why the Church today generally believes gay to be sin. Here now you state you just knew the Bible condemns gays. How did you just know that? You decided to change based on you knew what the bible said about gays. You knew the below:
Gen 19:4-5 gang rape, murder, victims would have been angels
Judg 19:22 rarely used gang rape, murder, but victim was opposite sex.
Deut 23:17 don't be a temple prostitute
IKing 14:24 rarely used temple prostitute
IKing 15:12 rarely used temple prostitute
IKing 22:46 rarely used temple prostitute
II Ki 23:7 rarely used temple prostitute
Lev 18:22 acts done in worshipping other gods, not comparing loving, caring , long term relationships
Lev 20:13 acts done in worshipping other gods, not comparing loving, caring , long term relationships
Rom 1:27-28 Should be 18-32. adults turned from God, God changed them, results visible evil behavior
1 Cor 6:9 call boy and temple prostitute, 1950 original Greek removed, meant masturbation before 1850
1 Tim 1:10 temple prostitute
Jude 1:7 general sexual immorally of Sodom and Gomorrah with no hint of sexual orientation
^i^ I go into details on all these verses on my web site http://www. Geocities.com/westhollywood/9647/related. html
I had the faith of a child and took the Lord seriously. I broke off all ties with my former friends, (a process with which they seemed only to keen to co-operate), no longer frequented the places I used to, stopped smoking marijuana (dagga) which had been my frequent habit for the best part of 10 years, and immersed myself in the company and activities of the church.
^i^ Sure when you refreshed your Christian relationship with Jesus, to be effective you should have officially accepted him as savior (being in the Assemblies of God this should have been important part of your process of returning to Jesus) I stopped drinking and many things too, but Jesus never said stop being who you are and be someone else. I guess he told you to be someone else? I too spent my time at every meeting the Assemblies of God had for nearly 15 years after I accept Jesus. I did much more that that I search the Word of God and all those verses above and many more and read the Bible many times. I almost lived in Christian books stores. How come when I returned to Jesus I search the Word, but you after being away from God so long and never really knew the Word just knew what it said about gays? I too spent time with Christians. I am still gays and have tons of true facts concerning God's Word. I can confidently stand before the best of Bible scholars on this subject because I know what I am talking about and they haven't a clue except a 700 year anti-gay Church doctrine.
The first years were strange. I treated every homosexual desire like a demon, and rebuked it and bound it and sent it to the pits of hell. I no longer referred to myself as homosexual, although I didn't pretend that I was heterosexual. The church I attended (Vineyard Christian Fellowship) knew where I was at and through the exposure to Jesus, through worship, and a willingness to abandon the desire to hold on to my "right" to be what I had been for 12 years, I slowly changed.
^i^ It is typical that ex-gay leaders think demons is behind being gay and so much of the homophobic Church does to. A lesbian friend of mine went to an Assemblies of God church once and the women got her up to the alter for general prayer with no sign of their real motives. Once there they began to speak in tongues and cast out demons for quite a period of time. This really terrified the lesbian, not because of any demon but the fierce attitude of these women. Later a Holy Spirit lesbian became her lover, but she swore she would never set a foot in a church again because of those women. This also happened to a MMC pastor friend of mine when visit his mom and at her Assemblies of God church. The church knew about him and tricked him to come to the alter for general prayer then did the same number on him. Hh of course loved Jesus and was a pastor and also knew Assemblies of God and what they believed about gays so it was more a story to relate to how Christians can be so homophobic. I am ready at any time to face anyone concerning satan and demons. The Bible is so clear on this issue and the authority of God's people. Yet, so many Christians just can't figure it out. Demons don't come out because they are not there to begin with. There are demons that deal with homosexuality, but it is to maintain the lie that it is sin by propagating lies about gays. Falsely accusing the innocent. Yes, your willingness to abandon being gay will get you a flock of homophobes to show you the way. It is not God's way at all.
I have homosexual tendencies, and would like to change too! (Make sure you
fill in your e-mail address)
You fundamentalists will believe anything!
Sorry, I just got off my space-ship...what planet is this?
^i^ Playing games on such a serious subject. There are 600 million gays you are so casually joking about here.
Looking back, I see that he has "re-fathered" me. He has systematically confronted me with most of the issues, which pertain to my biological father, and his failure to affirm me as a man, and make me believe that I was worthwhile. Through worship he has slowly reoriented me, to where my preferences are first for him, and also for my wife.
^i^ "re-fathered ^i^ Every Christian alive must come to the Father, but re-fathered? We call God abba :
Rom 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. (KJV)
abba ^5^ is an Aramaic word, found in <Mark 14:36; Rom. 8:15> and <Gal. 4:6>. In the Gemara (a Rabbinical commentary on the Mishna, the traditional teaching of the Jews) it is stated that slaves were forbidden to address the head of the family by this title. It approximates to a personal name, in contrast to "Father," with which it is always joined in the NT. This is probably due to the fact that, abba having practically become a proper name, Greek-speaking Jews added the Greek word pater, "father," from the language they used. Abba is the word framed by the lips of infants, and betokens unreasoning trust; "father" expresses an intelligent apprehension of the relationship. The two together express the love and intelligent confidence of the child.
(from Vine's Expository Dictionary of Biblical Words)
(Copyright (C) 1985, Thomas Nelson Publishers)
^i^ This means we can call God "daddy" like a baby does. God will take care of you but he is not your earthly father which in generally can be a familiar example, but that is where it ends. You are a new creation in Christ Jesus where you Heavenly father is God. Quite a difference than some re-fathering scenarios. If he re-fathered you then have you straightened out your Mason father? Have you warned your father with caring love about the destruction that awaits Masons? So far I doubt learned very much about fatherhood. Your idea is that you can find your father image and not have sex with him. Which is the general ex-gay ministry dealing with father. Re-orientated you? You are bisexual Duncan what's there to re-orient? You are married to a woman and so living the straight side of your orientation.
Just lately he has removed from me the deep sense of shame which characterized the way that I related to godly men in authority. He is in the process of reintegrating me to the point where I am more and more able to accept myself and reclaim those valuable parts of me which I rejected when I became a Christian, and discover new ones which he is conferring on me as I co-operate with him. I amco-creator with him of the new creation, every time I make a decision for him and against broken ways of relating to the world around me. I am a testimony to his commitment and love, and the commitment and love of those godly men which he has placed on my path.
^i^ I know you can't accept this but God has placed another Godly man in your path. You may have come a long way,but you are not there yet and time is running out. Depending on the Degree of Masonry your dad holds he may know some things what are about to happen, but what ever, time is short. My ministry also deal in the Last Day's Church. And a great shaking is about to come on a Church that has been sleeping. Because of Masons the Church has been deceived in many areas because they have been like Israel and disobeyed God and like Israel the Church will be shaken. The sensor is about to be thrown down and this is what Jesus has been waiting for for so long. It represents a long waited answering of prayers of the innocent peoples that have been persecuted by the Church for the last 2000 years. You may think I am a nut case if you like, but I am telling about things to come and oh so very soon. The Church will see 3 billion die in a 3. 5 year period of time. . This time period is for the breaking of the power of God's people. Christians all to often have been up to condemning others. They condemned blacks to an inferior race and much more, just barely allowing them to be saved. They treated women so poorly for so long making them inferior to man. So many culture has been condemned, who knows what kind of a world we would have if people kept their cultures minus their gods. Doesn't take much study to see the harm done in the name of Jesus. We were never told to kill like Israel was told to, we were told to witness what Jesus done in our lives, but instead we must condemn everything and make laws forcing our doctrines. Ex-gays in a new thing and very wrong and a price has to be paid for the innocents being hurt. All you experience and even working for good cause in the gay community and no mention of Christian gay resources. You baptized in the Holy Spirit at so young an age and never a hint to look up gay Christian organizations. I would not doubt that this was a purposeful deletions from your testimony. You have not answered the questions on how you dealt with:
6945 qadesh (kaw-dashe'); from 6942; a (quasi) sacred person, i.e. (technically) a (male) devotee (by prostitution) to licentious idolatry: KJV-- sodomite, unclean.
733 arsenokoites (ar-sen-ok-oy'-tace); from 730 and 2845; a sodomite: KJV-- abuser of (that defileself) with mankind.
^i^ from most of the verses used to condemn gays by the Church. If these verses don't mean gay then is there place to doubt the few left over verses? I have read many ex-gay testimonies and many ex-gay leaders testimonies and heard many in person. Your testimonies never show one day of dealing with Bible verses. Yet, everyone of you say I justify and twist the Word. Tell me WHY? Did I create the Hebrew and Greek words for "sodomite"? Tell me do gays really behave as:
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; 29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, 30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: 32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them. (KJV)
^i^ I am just about 51 years old nearly 24 as a Pentecostal Christian. I have seen gay community since 1970. I have also seen the straight community all my life. I know a lot about ex-gay ministries too. You have done nothing in your testimony to answer the Word of God concerning the verses that are used to condemn gays. How did you decide gay was sin? You assumed it. In my testimony I deal with the verses, because I have checked out the claims that it is sin. I have my life and my testimony and God is not saying gay is sin and I don't go by my gut feelings I go by God's word. 600 million gays and verse 28-32 describes very bad people and this bad isn't sexual it is visible. 28-32 helps you find out who 18-27 are talking about. If you think gays are condemned then the Bible describes in detail behavior that can be seen day to day at work at play at home, with family and friends. Gays are very beneficial in society. They hold enough human care and health care jobs that if they quit, as some tried to make law, the care fields would collapse. All walks of life say gays are good people not behaving as 28-32 say they should. So that there tells you Romans does not condemns gays. Much more of that context explains other people not gays. Try to consider the facts.
Duncan, this is what I think about your story
On Tu, 23 Oct 1997 21:10:04 +0200 (GMT) Duncan & Jenny Bower <email@example.com> writes:
>John, I suggest you spellchecker your page. It gives a very bad
^i^ Word 97' renders your spellchecker misspelled. ( :>) )
>Fortunately I am not biased, so will read it anyway.
> Duncan Bouwer
> Heal me, and I will be healed
> Save me, and I will be saved,
> For You are the One I praise
> Jer 17:14
^i^ We both may have spelling problems. I used Word 97 to correct my errors but left your several errors unchanged. I feel free to do what you wish with my comments, you have a public message and so do I and we are Christians our work is up for grabs and does not need permission. Now if you were a private person confiding in me that would change. We both are not private with what we believe is truth. That is why I didn't feel need to ask you your permission, but for your sake I sent you a copy of what will appear on my web site with others like yourself and of course a lot of other comments too. Please can you give me exactly your affiliation with Trail Blazers. That organization doesn't make it very clear on who you are let a lone your e-mail address. Keep in touch with my web page as I update it often. Currently I am very busy updating and reviewing lasts month gathering of info and e-mail received. It was quite fascinating to read so many ex-gay leader testimonies. I have well know it to be true, but never really had the testimonies till now. Now I can add to what I know the out of the mouth testimony of founders and other leaders of these organizations. There is another fact gay testimony usually follows straight testimonies. In that when people get saved there life continues , but now Jesus is in it. They parallel straights in every way. Even sick straights that have to struggle with things. It's the ex-gays that doesn't ever make since. I felt from the first such testimonies I heard that they didn't come close to real gays at all. They had bizarre lives and bizarre responses to life. I usually got a weird feeling that they are sick and worst yet how the fall right into the hands of homophobic Christians. With all this new information direct from these leaders confirms exactly that it seems all ex-gay leader have sick backgrounds.
Duncan Come on I beg you give me some credentials. The only credentials so far I have from you is that you have experienced helping gays in South Africa get more rights. This means, by my experience which including tons of reading about gay groups that fight for rights, you know gays are good and have hearts of gold and care very much about people, and are not prejudice. You know much more than this too. I don't know that you were involved with Christian gays, if so then now you speak as a hypocrite ten times over. All other of you credentials concerning the gay issue tells me you simply went direct to homophobes for your answers. Your credentials include seeing gays at their worst perhaps by seeking out the drug culture. You said you went to "Varsity" but what did you learn. So we have nothing to gain from you.
Duncan of course you can get responses in your little game you played with us. Look at your self drawn right into the ex-gay lifestyle of lies. So is it suppose to be impressive that some have went on to get more from you? What do you think is going on it this world anyway? A massive anti-gay message from people that is suppose to show love. What do you think of course there are plenty like yourself, but most of them according to in-depth research. I don't think you get it at all. There are very detailed researching into following up on ex-gays by a number of people and ex-gays just don't stay that way. Sylvia Pennington who wrote "But Lord there Gay" I knew personally and even had on my TV program a number of times. She personally was helping 100 gays in San Francisco ex-gay Ministry turn straight. She was Assemblies of God. After a time she was getting more and more disturbed at the methods used to change gays. Note: this ex-gay ministry would you reject it as a bad one? Glad Tidings and Teen Challenge. She left it because she just didn't want anything more to do with the lies she was seeing. Later after a period she returned at God's call and she checked on this ministry. She found all the ex-gays she knew were gone. 100% of them. She knew them personally and where they lived or knew how to find them. She did. 100% left the ex-gays because it didn't work and most found a better walk with Christ for it. I suppose this from the horses mouth direct to my ears was false reporting? That is pretty bad don't you think 100% failure rate. How does your ministry explain to your clients this book? Do you forbid it? Have you read it and her other books. You are Assemblies of God baptized in the Holy Spirit. Don't you want to review what she learned? She has several books. What does your ministry tell its clients about the founders of Exodus? What does it tell about the founder of Quest and HA. Quest is gone but HA is still used and it founder was fired and charged with 13 counts of being gay with 13 (it might have been 14) clients. Doug Houck failed after many years leading his ministry Metonia where Exodus Seattle base is located. I certainly hope when you review my comments to your testimony that you will have the decency to tell me why you base gay is sin and how you came about this idea. I have some packets from ex-gay ministries too. Very thick containing the whole doctrine and behavior modification techniques uses and what other believers should do if a client starts slipping. (the left foot of fellowship). This I refer to L. I. F. E. supposedly Assemblies of God and Pentecostal. Is Trail Blazers Pentecostal or when you came back to Jesus did you begin to use your gift again? Jesus is about truth and your testimony at least should have a way one could learn how you found out gay was sin. Just saying the Bible says so or quote one of 13 verses just does get it. Yes, have a simply testimony if you like, but hey 600 million gays we got to have some way to know why you believe gay is sin. If you think sodomite means gay how did you learn this. Thanks for your time
Voice: 206-338-4297(gays) text: 425-321-5987 correspondence: firstname.lastname@example.org