Gays For Jesus
Article Date: Sunday, December 07, 1997
Comments in reply to
Calbh from AOL Christian chat room
You have become an existentialist apologist for the faith and willing to believe that anything that comes into your mind is from God, even when it totally contradicts the plain words of the bible.
recent conversation and your website From:
Calbh To: Gay4jesus
Date: 97-12-29 14:29:02 EST
means my comment response
^i^ means my comment response
I just finished reading your website and I am sure you don’t need to hear from me, what you have undoubtedly heard from many other Christians. My main concern is your references to 'extra biblical' so called truths you have heard directly from God.
^i^ What does 'extra biblical' mean to you? To me if I were to use and apply that term to what I do then it means "to find actual facts in otherwise non-Christian means" as in ancient writings of the day. Such as court records, diaries, poets, historians of the day, other records, geological findings, and artifacts, and what other kinds of pertinent info that is fact. Jesus is real and will stand the test of what human beings did in the past present and future. Extra means out of or not from to me. OR as maybe you are hinting your implication is instead of Bible, just get it from God by God talking to me. Well, instead of does not exist. I don't know what kind of Christian you are. But my background is out of the Assemblies of God. All things must be judged according to the Bible. To make it quite clear to you. There is no source other than the bible that I base what I say. If God appeared to me in person with whatever credential He chose, it would not be enough credentials for me unless the Bible confirmed it. Because you interpret the Bible as "gay is sin" does not make it sin. Because I interpret God spoke to me based on the Bible does not mean God really spoke to me. To the best of your current maturity in Christ you base God on what you believe the Bible says. You are very wrong on some things and righter than I'll ever be on others, SO WHAT. This does not send you to Heaven or hell. It is how your heart and soul and spirit are working out your Salvation with Christ that matters. If you rely on the Bible words then the Bibles words sends you to hell instantly. The Bible is alive and God quickens it as He will. You can say as much as you wish that gay is sin. You can never undue what is real. You cannot take one thing away from what has already happened. You can't take one word out of the Bible and neither can I. In 1950 Bible translators did take 2 Greek words out of the Bible in 1 Cor 6:9 and inserted a word not found in the Bible. There are Greek and Hebrew words for the word they inserted it was they just weren't used in the Bible, because it was not talking about those people. Now, if God did speak to me, who are you to refute it? If he didn't so what, I am not here to lie to you. I know what God has shown me. You have not walked one foot in my shoes. If you are familiar with Pentecostals then you can understand how the Holy Spirit moves according to what they believe the Bible teaches and their personal experiences in the Holy Spirit. I have been baptized in the holy Spirit and some 24 years have past. Are you going to dictate to me how God speak to His people? Are you going to convince me God was not talking to me and revealing these things I tell you? If you are as educated as you lead me to believe and have preached as much as you claim, then you are familiar with what I am telling you concerning God speaking to His people quite directly so they can tell others. God has always sent messengers and often they are stoned or mocked. God has given me a picture of the coming days for the Church. As each day go by it is so much clearer and easier to describe. It always is confirmed by the Word. I say the Rapture will happen at Rev. 11:18 when Jesus gives the Rewards, the Mystery is accomplished and the Temple is opened at that very moment. 3 billion have died in the past 42 months. Assemblies of God thinks Christians will be Raptured before the Trib starts. I believed that way too until it was revealed to me and confirmed by God showing me things all my life then putting it together suddenly at times and according to His word. Because, I know God's word. I have not had formal education, I bet you would be hard press to present something from the Bible I don't know or that God hasn't revealed something on it to me. I am not trying to brag, but make a point. You maybe assuming I spout off at the mouth calling any old thing that comes around from God. When God reveals things I have already the basics background on the bible concerning the revelation to me. Ez 34 was startlingly revealed to me in June of 1985. God had given that Chapter to me when I got saved. I had read it uncountable times and just couldn't understand why I need to keep reading it ( note: plus tons of related things to that chapter) then suddenly after I was trust into a confrontation with a pastor under condition not in my control I was forced to answer on the issue concerning gays as I was very well taught of the Lord on this subject which I described the various ways above, and when I got home I asked God why should I stand up to a pastor, a servant of yours, with what authority? The only way that I can speak in authority to pastors and ministers is to be called of God and given authority by Him directly in accordance with the Bible. DO YOU THINK THE BIBLE EXPLAINS THAT GOD DOES PUT PEOPLE IN AUTHORITY IN HIS CHURCH OVER OTHER? I could not recall in my past that God ever dealt according to His Word to place me in authority over pastors and leaders in the Church. I reviewed my life. Sure I loved God, sure I knew what I was talking about concerning the gay issue and the Bible, but what did God do to prepare me. It must be confirmed, by the Word, actual life, and the direct call. 3 witnesses must confirm it. God said to me simply, re-read it. That is when the reservoir of Heaven opened up and flooded down on me. I was lifted up, my mind was like floating and it was so clear what Ez 34 meant. Not only what many teach on it, but it has significant meaning concerning gays and the Church. Kind of past, present, future all summed up so perfectly. You can say what you will, but you were never prepared to understand the Chapter like I was. It took not only my unsaved life of 27 years, but 11 years as a Christian where I studied every aspect of the Church teaching concerning gays and researched non-church sources and Christians scholars that found gay was not sin and my own desire for the truth not accepting others, but actually finding it myself. The miracles in the process to deliver to me information flowed into me from God. So I saw the authority God gave me. It started when I told God to help me hit a nail and not my thumb when I was 5 years old. I kept hitting my thumb and told God I would not believe in him. Jesus never left me. He alone brought me back to him some 22 years later. Hundreds of minister in the next 11 years prophesied over me. Some famous some just local pastors. I never sought them they called me out saying God told them to call me up so He can give a word to me. Through my walk with Christ on that day in 1985 God showed me that all the conditions of the Bible were meant that I can speak with authority to you and any Church leader. You do not have to accept what I say. Jesus never forces you or anyone to choose to believe his messengers. Your 'extra biblical' phrase may seen fitting to you, but I would think that the many years you have preached you would have learned something in the way God works and not be so quick to assume things. You judged me, based on the word "gay" and your perception on it. You did not judge me as a person or a Christian. You did not even care to check anything about me, how old or how many years a Christians. You just plain assumed a negative attitude towards me, as we will see below with the rest of your e-mail.
The bible says, if they speak not according to the law and the testimony, there is no life in them' - this of course means the bible - you, in effect are saying, that God is showing you things (this is no coincidence considering your gay lifestyle) that prove what you believe in your heart are, in fact, true. You have become an existentialist apologist for the faith and willing to believe that anything that comes into your mind is from God, even when it totally contradicts the plain words of the bible.
^i^ Here you go again. Without adding the extra or ministering on the internet or my BBS that I ran, or the several years on the air in Portland or the few times here and there in other cities I have preached 676 times. For a few years these were hour-long programs. You have claimed in the chat room that you have some experience preaching. You preach to the Jews????????? When I go to the Jewish chat rooms..... who me, a gay person, hey you wouldn't expect I know anything do you? Hey, TORAH galore, Hebrew, customs, and more. What happens when they see a screen name "gays4jesus" show up? Do they jump on me like in the Christian rooms like you did? NO, they jump on me because of the "Jesus" part of my name. They think when Christians come into their rooms the will be persecuted or the Christians will try to covert them to become Christians. Christians are known by them to disrupt their rooms. I have to explain I am not there as these Christian behave. God did not tell any Christian to go into Jewish community and take over, but Christians have always done this haven't they. They came to the Americas and told the Indians they were naked and it was sin. But you think I have passing thoughts and think these thought are God telling me things. I guess you don't know much about God and Jesus do you? If God wants your attention, believe me he will get it, saved or not saved. Unbelievers will know God spoke to them. Mules will talk if you won't listen, right. That is Bible. Believe me God does talk to his people. Want to fight this concept, which is not my concern. You just go to Pentecostals and explain they are just believing what ever comes to their minds as from God. Hey, you are talking to me about is gay sin or not, not about does God speak to His people or not. Having said that I'd say you are so stupid and making such a fool out of yourself to assume I do not have concern for the Bible in all its due accord. Let me tell you what I think of the Bible. I think every word in it is inspired by God. I believe in the beginning was the Word and the Word became flesh. The first time I read the Bible I was 27 years old. I simply could not control my emotions. I cried intensely most of the way through it. 24 years later it still does the same thing to me and I have read it very many times. I love the Word of God more than life itself, more than anything. The Bible is absolutely the only solid ground and base for anything that ever is. When I minister to you or anyone and every time I preach concerning the gay issues and God I am not going after anything foreign to God Word. What do you think I am doing? You told me "sodomite" mean a resident of Sodom. So what is my approach to your statement. I do not do anything other than use the WORD. Beside I know the Word on this subject and I can find it all, I also have the work of Straight Christians in Bible study programs for computers. I can type the word "sodomite" into the search "concordance" and find every single place it is used. Tell me where do I error? You told me it meant a residence of Sodom. You the one accusing me of assuming what ever comes to my mind is from God. Look, tell me how did you arrive at your conclusion? Who is twisting scripture? "Sodomite is never used to describe citizens of Sodom in the Bible. Outside the Bible, yes, we can call city residents (I live in Seattle) a Seattleite. But what does the Bible call them?
Jer 23:14 I have seen also in the prophets of Jerusalem an horrible thing: they commit adultery, and walk in lies: they strengthen also the hands of evildoers, that none doth return from his wickedness: they are all of them unto me as Sodom, and the inhabitants thereof as Gomorrah. (KJV)
^i^ Well I did several searches to try to find a name for its citizens. I got "the men of Sodom" and it also said "the young" so what does it mean?
Gen 19:4 But before they lay down, the men of the city, even the men of Sodom, compassed the house round, both old and young, all the people from every quarter: (KJV)
582 'enowsh (en-oshe'); from 605; properly, a mortal (and thus differing from the more dignified 120); hence, a man in general (singly or collectively): KJV-- another, X [blood-] thirsty, certain, chap [-man]; divers, fellow, X in the flower of their age, husband, (certain, mortal) man, people, person, servant, some (X of them), + stranger, those, + their trade. It is often unexpressed in the English versions, especially when used in apposition with another word . Compare 376.
5288 na` ar (nah'-ar); from 5287; (concretely) a boy (as active), from the age of infancy to adolescence; by implication, a servant; also (by interch. of sex), a girl (of similar latitude in age): KJV-- babe, boy, child, damsel [from the margin], lad, servant, young (man).
^i^ Well, men can mean people? And young includes meaning a girl and babies. So how did you get so sure that everyone was gay men seeking sex? And look at the verse closely it say "all the people" what do you suppose that means. And what does "to know" mean. Does it mean what you wish "sex" or something else?
Gen 19:5 And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where are the men which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them. (KJV)
3045 yada` (yaw-dah'); a primitive root; to know (properly, to ascertain by seeing); used in a great variety of senses, figuratively, literally, euphemistically and inferentially (including observation, care, recognition; and causatively, instruction, designation, punishment, etc.) [as follow]: KJV-- acknowledge, acquaintance (-ted with), advise, answer, appoint, assuredly, be aware, [un-] awares, can [-not], certainly, comprehend, consider, X could they, cunning, declare, be diligent, (can, cause to) discern, discover, endued with, familiar friend, famous, feel, can have, be [ig-] norant, instruct, kinsfolk, kinsman, (cause to let, make) know, (come to give, have, take) knowledge, have [knowledge], (be, make, make to be, makeself) known, + be learned, + lie by man, mark, perceive, privy to, X prognosticator, regard, have respect, skilful, shew, can (man of) skill, be sure, of a surety, teach, (can) tell, understand, have [understanding], X will be, wist, wit, wot.
^i^ WOW what a large definition huh? Where is the sex here? Certainly the Bible does describe details and so we do know raping to death was the intention here. Just like Romans the Bible gives so much detail on the behaviors of these people that you can easily see if the people you are accusing behavior this way. Gays just don't behave Verse 18-25 or because these people of the context were this kind of evil there was a resulting behavior listed in 28-32. Gays are not behaving this way either. How can you place gays in Romans with so much detail given to behavior in the context of 18-32. Gays have never behaved this way. Had you studied facts you would find that this can not be talking about gays. However, the facts you find does show straights having orgies in the fertility cult temple Paul could see where he was preaching at that statue of the unknown god who Paul was declaring the identity of this unknown god as God. Did I make this up? Did God tell me this? Where did I an uneducated man learn this information about the exact circumstances surrounding Paul's message? You got it right, from bonified well-accepted straight Christian scholars. I have heard hundreds of pastors preach on these verses including 26-27 and they all have sermons to preach that has nothing to do with gays or sex. Hey, it has got to condemn gays or not. No middle ground. Even the Greek for "nature and natural" will explain to you it cannot be talking about gays. For these in the proper context means adult straights that have enjoyed sexual relations thoroughly suddenly did same sex sex. Well, 600 million gay testimonies will show you that is not what gays do. So who love the Word? YOU? If you did then why did you reply "sodomite" means resident of Sodom? That is not Bible. Now let see the Bible Word for "sodomite"
Deut 23:17 There shall be no whore of the daughters of Israel, nor a sodomite of the sons of Israel. (KJV)
6945 qadesh (kaw-dashe'); from 6942; a (quasi) sacred person, i.e. (technically) a (male) devotee (by prostitution) to licentious idolatry: KJV-- sodomite, unclean.
^i^ By the why let see all the "sodomites" of the OT:
Deut 23:17 There shall be no whore of the daughters of Israel, nor a sodomite of the sons of Israel. (KJV)
IKing 14:24 And there were also sodomites in the land: and they did according to all the abominations of the nations which the LORD cast out before the children of Israel. (KJV)
IKing 15:12 And he took away the sodomites out of the land, and removed all the idols that his fathers had made. (KJV)
IKing 22:46 And the remnant of the sodomites, which remained in the days of his father Asa, he took out of the land. (KJV)
II Ki 23:7 And he brake down the houses of the sodomites, that were by the house of the LORD, where the women wove hangings for the grove. (KJV)
^i^ Let us read carefully Bible word for Bible word. Hmmmm... Who were these "sodomites", and what does prostitution mean to you, and can we find them in real life in those days and do they behave like gay people, and do gays behave this way? Yes, the Libraries have the historical records on "sodomites" plus many scholars have done expert research into the detail of their behaviors. These men were members of fertility cults and in the frenzy of worshipping these gods and goddesses they were took hold of by the spirit as it were. (demons?, but would seem to them like a Pentecostal kind of thing and very sacred) They would often be drawn to the alter where there would be a sacrificial bowl of knives. They would cut off their HMM and if they lived they would become "sodomites". Now, everyone one just about was straight so part of this ritual includes these men with no HMM would dress as women so the straight clients would be more satisfied performing their ritual duties to bring blessings on their crops and families in the coming year. The two places that condemn men wearing women's close, one in the NT & one in the OT, is relating not to drag queens or TS's, TV's, but to sodomites who dressed as women, a big difference. Did you know there was so much info about real "sodomites"? Sorry, no matter how you wish "sodomites" meant gays, the Bible says differently. Do you know the history of the word "sodomy"? Had you would also know it had no relationship to these sodomites, but Christian added its own ideas of purity to straight sex, then in more recent times has been upgraded to include gays, but has nothing what so ever to do with BIBLE. Gays never behaved this way. How do gays behave. ARE you married? How did this come about? How did you meet your wife? Did you date other women in your life before your wife? Are you divorced or know Christians that have divorced and remarried? Do you fight with your wife at times over various things. How do you make up with your wife? How do you feel inside when you make love to your wife? How natural does making love feel to you with your wife? Ask your self every kind of thing that you experience with you wife. Good and bad. How do you or other deal with it? KIDS? How do you react to yours? How do you deal with schools and hospitals concerning your KIDS? Evaluate every aspect of what you think a Christian marriage should be, meaning real life, not wishful thinking. Do most non-Christian marriage generally go on very similar with yours. Certainly with 6 billion people non-Christian families must have some degree of success and are o6ther than not believing are pretty decent families. At least they would say so wouldn't they. Well, after you go over every angle of what it is to be straight and in love and married or the process to get married and then you come up with an opinion of what it means to be straight (we are not talking about evil straights because straights of course are the kings and queens of sexual immorality). What is your opinion? Is straight sin or not? When you have come to a conclusion about straights and what constitutes a good marriage and moral life in a loving caring relationship you would have discovered what the word being gay means. Gay does not mean promiscuous as you would love. It does not mean prostitution, it does not mean obsession with sex, it simply means the same as being straight. When you say 1 Cor 6:9 condemn gays you are wrong. That verse condemns prostitution in 2 specific forms. Fornication in Greek when expanded to cover every kind of sex immorality by Greek definition can at best come up with male prostitute. From 1 Cor 6:9
4205 pornos (por'-nos); from pernemi (to sell; akin to the base of 4097); a (male) prostitute (as venal), i.e. (by analogy) a debauchee (libertine): KJV-- fornicator, whoremonger.
^i^ You just can't get any of the 13 verses:
The Anti-gay Church 700 year old Doctrine in a nut shell!
Gen 19:4-5 gang rape, murder, victims would have been angels
Judg 19:22 rarely used gang rape, murder, but victim was opposite sex.
Deut 23:17 don't be a temple prostitute
IKing 14:24 rarely used temple prostitute
IKing 15:12 rarely used temple prostitute
IKing 22:46 rarely used temple prostitute
II Ki 23:7 rarely used temple prostitute
Lev 18:22 acts done in worshipping other gods, not comparing loving, caring, long term relationships, woman is a likely adulteress
Lev 20:13 acts done in worshipping other gods, not comparing loving, caring, long term relationships, woman is a likely adulteress
Rom 1:27-28 should be 18-32. Adults turned from God, God changed them, results visible evil behavior
1 Cor 6:9 callboy and temple prostitute, 1950 original Greek removed, meant masturbation before 1850
1 Tim 1:10 temple prostitute
Jude 1:7 general sexual immorally of Sodom and Gomorrah with no hint of sexual orientation
^i^ I love God's Word. I end my TV program saying read the Bible. I encourage people to read the Bible. I have given many Bible to many people. I have little Bible booklets for Salvation that is a group of several pages verses that say how to get saved and man's condition for this needs and Who Jesus is and his love. It is a wonderful set of verses to leave everywhere you go for other to find. How did you come up with I think God speaks by stuff coming across my mind?
a·pol·o·gist (e-pòl¹e-jîst) noun
A person who argues in defense or justification of something, such as a doctrine, a policy, or an institution
ex·is·ten·tial·ism (èg´zî-stèn¹she-lîz´em, èk´sî-) noun
A philosophy that emphasizes the uniqueness and isolation of the individual experience in a hostile or indifferent universe, regards human existence as unexplainable, and stresses freedom of choice and responsibility for the consequences of one's acts.
- ex´is·ten¹tial·ist adjective & noun
The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Third Edition copyright © 1992 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Electronic version licensed from INSO Corporation; further reproduction and distribution restricted in accordance with the Copyright Law of the United States. All rights reserved.
^i^ It is amazing how homophobes try to explain away things. If speaking for truth is what you mean then I am guilty. When you write me you never even attempted to use God's word, but made statements to assume the fact that it say gay is sin. I will be answering another person's e-mail that at least included the text of the verse, but of course no reference as to how he arrived at the conclusion it meant gay is sin. You don't do anything but assume the 700 year old doctrine. Below as taken from the Student Reference Library that came with my new computer:
Religion has been of central importance in shaping this climate. Until the thirteenth century, the Christian tradition was ambiguous in its attitude toward homosexuality. But with the recodification of canon law under the influence of Thomas Aquinas, new attitudes set in. Homosexual behavior was thereafter excoriated as a heinous sin. The English carried these beliefs to North America, and the power of religion in early America guaranteed that such beliefs would shape colonial attitudes.
^i^ But you see truth is meaningless to you. I bet you'd say the above reference is a lie, right? I hope you can tell me why the above waited as the more detailed information of my research show this all began at the end of the 12th century. Why did the Church wait 13 centuries to condemn gays? There is a lot of info and with you education didn't they teach what went on in this time period. The Bible says amen the pastor in church, but go home and search the scriptures to see if this is so or not. Are you searching them? How do you do it? Do you find a Bible that says homosexuals won't inherit the Kingdom then say that it is in the bible so gay is sin? What about the version that says temple prostitutes won't inherit? What translators were right? A fact King James was a well-known transvestite. Have you read the introductory of the KJV? I heard say he wasn't so involved, but according to the fact he was very much determined to have the most accurate translation possible for the times. They (1611) translated 1Cor 6:9's two Greek words below:
3120 malakos (mal-ak-os'); of uncertain affinity; soft, i.e. fine (clothing); figuratively, a catamite: KJV-- effeminate, soft.
733 arsenokoites (ar-sen-ok-oy'-tace); from 730 and 2845; a sodomite: KJV-- abuser of (that defileself) with mankind.
^i^ as "weak and spineless". Well weak and spineless does not mean homosexual, so why do so many Christian who love KJV (I love it too) say 1 Cor 6:9 means homosexual? By the way what does a ":" mean to you? I was always taught it means what ever comes after ":" would be talking about what ever was just before and would not jump to other possible subjects. In this case it is mandatory in English that what ever is before the ":" must be the subject talked about after the ":". So a "sodomite" can never be anything other than a "sodomite". It can't change to mean any same sex sex or that because the reader thinks same sex sex is homosexual therefore all homosexual are being condemned. In English something would have to be inserted to change ":" to another topic finishing the topic on in this case "sodomites". I have material on at least 30 versions of the Bible concerning this verse. Some of the Greek dictionaries are translations themselves. Which means if you were in the 1950 and wanted to find information on gays you would be forced to a narrow source of info, which shows sick gays. Most gays are not sick. All the information in 1950 from the Church's libraries referred to gays as about the most perverted people alive. Have you checked out what info was available then? How could Bible translators translate 1 Cor 6:9 into English except to say what they have been taught since 1850 about that verse and then they see what is known about gays and see the horrendous psychiatrist communities perception of these extremely sick individuals. How could in 1950 anyone find information on the healthy gays? Healthy gays were very good citizens and do very beneficial work in all fields, but they kept their gayness a secret because the Church saw to it that they would be disowned by family, church, friends, and work. Today, it is not so hard to find out about gays. Psychiatrists often have quite a different tune these days saying nothing can be found to say gays are perverted or sick or indecent but by all measure a very well adjusted people in spite of the continued persecution by the Church. The last place I'd base anything on it what passes through my mind. I did not accept Jesus to believe lies or to seek lies or to justify myself for anything. I was able to accept Jesus because I sought truth and the truth was Jesus and so when I was able to accept that last barrier by saying to God "if you are the truth I will believe in you". One month after my statement to God I accepted Jesus. There is a very remarkable set of event that have been happening and then escalated that brought me to accept Jesus, so please try not to put your foot into your mouth like you did concerning me hearing from God. The sick gays still exist you know and they are still in therapy a lot giving gays a bad name. I have recent finished reading some 45 to 50 ex-gay leaders testimonies. I have never seen such a consistent set of very sick people. Their lives starting at a very young age was full of a sick attitude towards everything. Normal things blown out of proportion. They have a consistent trend towards getting into the ex-gay ministries. They never sought any study of the Bible, but went directly to homophobic pastors for help to become straight. Every one of them displayed bisexual tendencies. There is such a big difference between bisexuals and gays and yet bisexuals are generally the leaders of ex-gay ministries. How much research have you put into the ex-gay groups? How long have you follow-up on ex-gays? How many ex-gays and ex-gay leaders are now ex-ex-gays? How many ex-ex-gay leaders tell of the 100% failure rate in the ex-gay ministries? Why do they lie about their founders? I have from the horses mouth testimony from founders and the details of how they became the founders and how they left it. But when I ask the new leaders they have a different story to tell. They sure become quite when I send them documentation of the step-by-step details. WHY? Why does Jimmy Swaggart say gays seduce straights? (of course he loved prostitutes didn't he). Why do people tell such lies about gays? Seattle group that wanted to make it a sin for gays to work in Wash. Hid a flap, which would also take rights away from all minorities too, but it also stated that gays would now be classed as people having sex with animals. This was a Christian group that did have some following. It is said gays are destroying the family. Lets calculate. USA approx. 280 million so means 28 million gays, so means 56 million people as parents. What number of brothers and sister and relative would also be affected????? 2.5 per family???? Means 70 million siblings. Immediate family 154 million people. Pastor continually condemns gays as going to hell unless accept Christ and becomes straight. (Parents must disown this evil child that does not change and become straight). Who is destroying families???? Who is expressing God's love???? My personal experience with pastors is before they knew I was gay they treated as a man of God. They often confided with me telling me it is very apparent God is with you and many other statements saying their spirit bares witness with the Holy Spirit and my spirit as in the family of God, etc. I got around plus had a home church where I was always there in every service, but also been to uncountable other church and other denominations. From every angle I am told they see God in me. WHY did this change if I have the word gay in my name? If I were to go to a church that did not know me I would receive the same. What is different? I am just as gay then as now. I attended their churches then with my lover at my side year after year. Why was I a man of God then, but now because I am on TV and go to church one pastors tells me if I so much as blink he will call the police. I ask him can we go to the alter and pray, he said he does not have to, he has the answer already. Another pastor tells two boys to call me regularly to talk while that pastors takes off on vacation. God is good so I was able to learn the details. Why did he do that? Why did a 16 year boy with AIDS sleeping in the cemetery because churches would not help him, but he went to a church of that pastor that said for me not to blink, and that pastor gave him my phone number, why? Why did a pastors wife tell me that if the word of God itself was handed out there and it was against what they were teaching it would not be allowed? Then why did the pastor seeing this come towards me with clenched fists looking as to do me bodily harm and was red as a beet? The Holy Spirit drew him into my loving embrace and I prayed in tongues over him. He changed instantly to a man giving me the most respect even inviting me to return to finish my program on the topic they were deal with. I can go on an on. Shall I tell you about TBN's counseling line concerning gays????? Funny the then president of the local branch was very positive towards gays and did not think it was the sin the Church preached. He just said Paul and Jan just would not allow any positive dealing with gays. Can I tell you about the 300,000 plus phones calls from Christians? 25% were positive, but 75% had some very interesting things I can tell you about. Who twists God word? How did you get so intelligent that you are right no matter what concerning gays? Answer me this; is these hundreds of thousands plus who knows how many more as the years flows by an example that proves gay is sin? If gay is sin then the Bible can stand up to it and Christian don't have to appear demon possessed with they meet a gay person. If gay were sin then why do so many Christian haven't a clue why they believe it sin. As I said earlier TBN's counselors rarely have any knowledge about gays except to state it is sin. Sometimes a counselor will have Billy Grahams counseling guidelines, but actually that was just this one man who was there regularly. One lady said Romans condemn gays. I ask her what does it say. She didn't know how to find it so I told her how, then she read the context and said what does this have to do with gays? Who loves the Bible? YOU? All educated up and preached everywhere, and yet hasn't a clue what you are talking about seeing my gay in my name and stating when I say God tells me that or that that I don't use the Bible but just wish passing thoughts into being from God. I don't just have passing thoughts as you assume. I have incredible full length motion pictures include on site location with all senses talking complete part on the future unfolding in front of my face. Conditions impossible to imagine in my widest thoughts and no movie yet can detail. I can't possibly explain what I see. I don't go out and tell you or anyone the details of what God shows me in dreams, I tell you what the Bible says and the facts that really are happening or have happened. I don't what kind of a Christian you think you are, but soon you will be shocked. When I explain what God shows or tells me I do it according the Bible. I find myself often telling people details of coming events. It sounds like I am not referring to many verses. I am not gifted as it were to quote chapter number and verse number, but I tell you a good part of what I am saying is Bible and lots in parables. You certainly can't accept what I say, but I am not telling you these things because I need you to believe me or that I even need to prove anything at all. I am just suppose to tell you what I am shown. Out of love, more God's than mine I spend many pages giving lots of words to ponder that just maybe will save you some day. All I need do is say Christians will see 3 billion die in 42 months before they are Raptured. I add much more detail for yours and their sake. I know where I got the info and the details surrounding the authenticity of what I say. You only care that gay is in my name and not what manner of message is this and where has it come from. You only assume your " existentialist apologist " term towards me with checking it out. Why listen to someone first instead of seeing the word gay by his name then make many assumptions about that person?
Why is it that only the gay persons don’t believe that the bible condemns what they are doing?
^i^ WOW are you so very smart with all your education and preaching.... HMMMMM...... you mean only gays believe gay is not sin? Have you investigated PFLAG Parents and Friends of Lesbians and Gays? Have you read any of Sylvia Pennington’s books? She wrote several showing gay is not sin. She is a straight Assemblies of God woman. Have you surf the net? Tons of material on the web from straights showing gay is not sin. Have you researched the APA's finding showing gay is not sin? I can go on for quite sometime showing straight Christian support. Episcopals, Lutherans, Catholics have outreaches named Integrity, Lutherans Concerned, and Dignity. Are these Churches mainly straight or all gay? The outreaches are indeed led by gays and for gays in those churches. Haven't you heard the many straight pastors in secret behind closed doors are marrying gay couples? I guess you just don't care about people enough to see if you may be wrong on your assumptions. You certainly are very wrong on assuming I, me, base everything on what comes into my mind. Check out the vote. It is nearing a consistent 50% pro and 50% against gays. Oh I suppose you would say the 50% pro gay straights are not Christians; just like saying all Christians are republicans. Gays have a very good reason for knowing what the Word of God says about them. You see when gays come to Christ it is just like straights coming to Christ. They love Jesus, they are filled with Jesus, because Jesus comes inside. They do not seek lies as you suppose, they seek the same truth you seek. Your fantasy that gays just justify being gay is your dearest myth in which you have so much love for as it supports your continued condemnation of 600 million people. Facts prove you wrong. These straights and straight Christians are no less Christian than you, how do you justify why they don't believe as you?
Romans 1, alone makes the homosexual life style a sin and clearly states those who continue in this without repenting, God will give up to a reprobate mind -reprobate, meaning a 'mind void of judgment' - this has apparently happened in your case and thousands of others who practice homosexuality and wont see it as sin and repent. Listen, we all sin - the bible makes that clear - but when we don’t see sin as sin and refuse to repent, there is a serious question that we even have the Holy Spirit, who Jesus said, 'would show us all truth'.
^i^ I had already talked about Romans some and it is on my web site which you told me you read. WOW you are fast. There are 50 to 60 files and most are many pages long. Here in WINWORD it tells me some are 25 to 35 pages long and as of this spot in this writing it is 17 pages long. So you are a very fast reader. Click (http://www.geocities.com/westhollywood/9647/romans.html) to see more details on Romans. Romans a baby should understand. However, it took me a while because you had no actual gay words to find in the Greek to find out what it meant. My problem is like yours. You are stuck on 26-27 and have a huge conditioning that that means gay sex. To summarize only and not getting to involved here just click on click or if you don't have the set up go to the http. Now the context is 18-32 not 26-27. Now you use:
Rom 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; (KJV)
Rom 1:28 Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. (NIV)
Rom 1:28 And even as they refused to have God in (their) knowledge, God gave them up unto a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not fitting; (ASV)
^i^ So you have concluded 18-26 describes gays so you are saying every gay alive that stays gay God gave them a reprobate mind so they would behave evilly in non-sexual behavior as well. Let me understand this. You have determined Romans condemns gays and that God did something to their brains in their minds that as maybe before they were not that bad in behaving. I am talking about behavior that is not sexual. You know like going to work all day or to college or yard work or visiting with people, you know anything except sex. Sex you already determined in 26-27 right? God says because they won't change that He God will force a change in their brains (minds) to do evil. I wonder did Paul give us any example of non-sexual behavior so we can get a good clear understanding of what Paul means that God did?
29 They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30 slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31 they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. (NIV)
^i^ WOW a pretty detail set of evil behavior don't you think? God is so good because now their can be no mistake can their? You see if we were sure who God means here through Paul's writing we can now see very precise details of behavior that supposedly gays have to commit behave now they can't help themselves as God gave them over to do these things almost as it mean as a compulsion. So now we have so much material to go on to try to find out who these person Romans call "THEY". Well again, we don't have to make up stories there are tons of stories about gays. 600 million gays worldwide, plenty of gays to get a real good idea of non-sexual behavior. The FLAP story I told you earlier about brought out some very interesting facts concerning gay non-sexual behaviors. It was learned that if the law past and gay were forced to quits their jobs (this law included that if straights knew of gay working and did not report it they would lose their jobs too) that the health care field would collapse. Is this evil? Gays are said to be taking care of our health. Oh you say it mostly straights. Sorry, this was no small FLAP. If gays were to stop working in health care and care giving that industry would collapse. Employers often say the gay employees are their best workers. Fact gays love God and Jesus. Fact gays love parents even when their parents disown them. Fact gays do indeed make good parents. Fact field after field of behaviors gays excel in. Their attitudes are decent. Like straights you can find bad apples, but you sure don't condemn straights to hell for the sake of bad apples do you? Concerning sex as well, gay behave generally like straights. But way out of proportion straights are far greater sexual sinners than gays. The point is no matter what you think gays are just plain good folks. So then how do you explain that God was suppose to have made them so they would like to seek evil all the time? Your own statement proves Romans is not talking about gays. What of what you left out 18-25? Here we meet the "THEY" The "THEY" knew God into adulthood. The "THEY" then started to turn from God to gods and carved out wooden and stone gods. How do we assume some of this since it say right out they made creeping thing and worshipped them? Well this kind of thing has been kind of regular in the Nation of Israel you know. We read how they cut down a tree cut some of it cook with and keep warm with and make furniture with, then with the left over carve a god to put on the shelf and dust once in a while. Lots of material from lots of sources describing all these details including the Bible. So we know far a fact that these "THEY" grew up and were adults. Do you think it is describing children? They were straight as these adults too, because the famous 26-27 say seed and instinct. Put into context that English demands We have adults that have been active sexual having straight sex and enjoying it a lot. Emphasizing A LOT! How do I know? DUH! GOD did not make them gay until they made these other gods remember.
Rom 1:24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: (KJV)
^i^ It was here that they "quote" turned gay, right? First, they knew God and later turned away and made gods then God changed them from their nature (Greek seed) which their natural (Greek instinct) to be, now they can do anything sexual with each other (you say means they are gay) after which God added a feature to their minds that they would love to seek evil acts from then on.
5446 phusikos (foo-see-kos'); from 5449; "physical", i.e. (by implication) instinctive: KJV-- natural. Compare 5591.
5449 phusis (foo'-sis); from 5453; growth (by germination or expansion), i.e. (by implication) natural production (lineal descent); by extension, a genus or sort; figuratively, native disposition, constitution or usuage: KJV-- ([man-]) kind, nature ([-al]).
^i^ FACT! Gays did not become gay after they were adults. They did not love straight sex ever (bisexuals loves both ways they aren't gay). Gays do not make other gods and worship them anymore than straights do. Gays do not love to do evil behavior instead they are very good people. Many are Christians. Fact Paul stood at the statue of the unknown god and declared GOD while in view of a fertility cult temple known to have straight orgies going on, very very very unseemingly acts. Also, it kind of has similarities to "sodomites" people that worshipped at fertility cults and became prostitutes for it. God's people were warned don't do as Egyptians and Canaanites do in their fertility religions. But the most important thing is it just plain don't describe gays. How do gay behave sexual. Look at your sexual life as a straight person, how you dated and how you met your wife and married and how it all feels and means to you. Then you are on your way to understanding who gays are.
I am not writing this to condemn but in the hope that some of it will make sense to you.
^i^ But condemn you did. It make a lot of sense to me. It clearly portrays what 700 years of conditioning has done to so many Christians. It shows me in detail how someone that claims much education and lot of experiencing preaching learns little about Christian love. You first words almost was to assume I did not put the Word of God above every source and as much as abandoning the Bible. Hey your Shalom below doesn't mean you wish peace it means you wish war.
^i^ Now here you are a person Good has bless with plenty of preaching opportunities. You have a list of credentials (gay knowledge was not in the list), which maybe are impressive. Yet, no at the beginning of 1998 how do you use your life with Jesus up till now? You see the word gay and instantly assume many very bad things, which are complete lies. Loving Jesus means each person you meet is his creation and what do you know if this person was sent to you to teach. You are not always the teacher and little one has more authority than you will ever have in Christ Jesus. I tell you gays that never meant Christ as Savior and died 500 years ago have a stronger prayer that Jesus will answer than any prayer you have ever prayed. The Church is responsible for many innocent deaths and the day of accounting is here. It was reserved. Jesus did a lot but actually very little concerning the innocent victims of the Church. He has a set DAY that has been reserved and that DAY is so close now. The Church is about to hate some Christians and try to have them killed. Great shaking will happen in the Church. Many talk about the edges of it, but they just can't see into the fullness of the shaking. A clue about some results is the 4th level of disobedience by the Church in Lev. Ch. 26. There is a distinct reason for what this shaking is all about and no one will get to Heaven (Heaven is temporary for Christians then its back to Earth) until God's people get their wedding gowns on. This will hurt very much many will perish. You and so many in places where they can make a difference fail to see how simple it is to find out if gay is sin or not. Just start inviting gays to give their testimonies. Or invite gays that know something of the Bible to stand and give account of his faith in Jesus Christ with a show of power of the Holy Spirit. I don't have a clue if you are Pentecostal. Many believe gays are demon possessed. It is a simple thing; even worst-case demons must leave no matter how much the person wants it to stay. You just have to fast a pray first and the hardest ones will come out. Here is a test for you. If hundreds of thousands of Christians who claim and give some accountability to their faith p say they will pray for me to my face through the years for that God will change me and make me straight or as much as destroy my ministry of kill me. Why is it that so many direct prayers of the faithful go unanswered? Is it a magic future time they will get their wish? The fact is my ministry is stronger than ever and my walk with Jesus keeps getting sweeter. Answers to my prayers often comes quickly or does come at some point in the future which now is past. Why not people in your positions take a chance on their faith in God. Is God able? Invite me to stand up to any of your congregations to take anything they or you can dish out from the word, in the Spirit, or just plain questions and answers. See for yourself am I evil and grasping at straws. If I am of God then what are you doing. If you reject what I say and go on with your life from here. If I not be of God how can I stand up to so many Christian and you? I love you and can demonstrate it. You say you love me, but show nothing of why you are so against a people who you don't like what they do in bed (which is no different than what you do in bed). I don't have to guess, I don't have act, I don't have to be concerned about what I will say for I would never come to lie or justify anything. I come with some of the truth you reject and hate. I am your brother you consider dead am I am telling you have many brothers and sister that are quite alive and I am handing them back to you. Let your joy be full for your loved ones you thought dead are here alive, your joy should be full. 600 million gay and many many millions of them are your loved ones you thought dead.
Voice: 206-338-4297(gays) text: 425-321-5987 correspondence: email@example.com